Women in combat

[Ed Anger]

Also, may you fuckers have to suffer through "Scrapbooking".

[alfred russel]

But it already has changed.

Which I see as a real problem.

I'm as much a feminist as you're likely to meet, but not in the "bad" way. What I believe is that women should have exactly the same opportunities as men to do the exact same job. Don't change it to accommodate the fact that women tend to be smaller, weaker, and *coughs* smarter. Find the bare minimum of what it entails to do the job, and apply them across the board.

The one thing to keep in mind is that most jobs need to be re-evaluated due to new techonologies, new ways at viewing the jobs, and to make sure that the bare minimum is correct. There was a time when job requirements were made what they were in order to keep women out of them. (I'm thinking construction here, in particular, but there are other jobs that did that, as well.) I think that as a whole, our society is now better at saying, "Okay, let's find out what needs to happen, what is needed to make it happen, and right our requirements accordingly, regardless of gender, race, sexual practices, or how many teeth a person has in their head." Unfortunately, it's not perfect, and there are still those who will set their "guidelines" in a way to intentionally keep a particular set of people out.

I bet the military brass would be against having the same standards for men and women. Women serve a lot of key noncombat roles, but many of them would have trouble achieving the male fitness standards and would end up out of the service.

[Eddie Teach]

That one's easy. There should be different fitness standards for males in combat and non-combat roles too.

For instance, I shouldn't be categorically rejected from the military because I require contact lenses.

[merithyn]

I bet the military brass would be against having the same standards for men and women. Women serve a lot of key noncombat roles, but many of them would have trouble achieving the male fitness standards and would end up out of the service.

Not all military jobs require the same fitness standards. And women do have to meet the basic requirements to get into the military... for women. Where they went wrong was in not lowering those standards for men, as well.

The idea is to put the requirements at the lowest possible to do the job. Then add more requirements to do the more difficult jobs, irregardless of gender.

[alfred russel]

I bet the military brass would be against having the same standards for men and women. Women serve a lot of key noncombat roles, but many of them would have trouble achieving the male fitness standards and would end up out of the service.

Not all military jobs require the same fitness standards. And women do have to meet the basic requirements to get into the military... for women. Where they went wrong was in not lowering those standards for men, as well.

The idea is to put the requirements at the lowest possible to do the job. Then add more requirements to do the more difficult jobs, irregardless of gender.

I don't know. I was trying to follow a military fitness program for a while, and was able to reach the women's marine fitness standards, and never hit the men's. If the fitness standards are about promoting discipline and good health--and to a large extent I think they are--then I can see accepting a woman who had to work much harder to achieve the same amount of upper body strength, but not me.

Also, for what it is worth (and I'd be interested if someone with military experience correcting this if it is wrong), I don't think the standards for front line units are bright line. Someone who can pass the fitness tests will not necessarily be considered at an acceptable level of fitness in an infantry unit by the NCOs.

[Barrister]

BTW, the Canadian forces have integrated women into combat roles for 20 years or so now.  Submarines used to be the only exception, but even that was eliminated a few years ago.

We've even had female soldiers die in Afghanistan.

Doesn't seem to have hurt our combat capability.

[merithyn]

BTW, the Canadian forces have integrated women into combat roles for 20 years or so now.  Submarines used to be the only exception, but even that was eliminated a few years ago.

We've even had female soldiers die in Afghanistan.

Doesn't seem to have hurt our combat capability.

But we know that Canadians are superior to Americans in most things.

No, I'm not being sarcastic, says the besotted wife of a Canadian.

[Ed Anger]

Canada Sucks.

[jimmy olsen]

I'm glad Siege showed up to liven up an otherwise boring thread. 

Who the fuck are you?
Timmothy or Monkeybutt?

Can't tell you two apart.

We both changed our names years ago. I'm Tim.

Please edit my last name out of that post.

We already know your last name, Chemo.

Thanks for the edit. 

[Hansmeister]

When you add all the shit you have to be able to carry in light infantry it adds up to about 150 pounds.  Are there any women outside of former east german athletes able to carry that load?

Add to that the complete lack of privacy and the need to be able to operate with little to no personal hygene for extended periods of time and you got a situation that makes it completely ridiculous to integrate women in all aspects of the military.

At least it is completely ridiculous to anyone who has actual experience in the arena.  I blame stupid SCIFI and Fantasy novels in making such a ridiculous premise plausible.

Not to mention that such a policy would lead to an exodus of women from the military and cause serious harm to military readiness.

[alfred russel]

When you add all the shit you have to be able to carry in light infantry it adds up to about 150 pounds.  Are there any women outside of former east german athletes able to carry that load?

Add to that the complete lack of privacy and the need to be able to operate with little to no personal hygene for extended periods of time and you got a situation that makes it completely ridiculous to integrate women in all aspects of the military.

At least it is completely ridiculous to anyone who has actual experience in the arena.  I blame stupid SCIFI and Fantasy novels in making such a ridiculous premise plausible.

Not to mention that such a policy would lead to an exodus of women from the military and cause serious harm to military readiness.

Why would allowing women into combat roles lead to an exodus of women, and didn't the Soviets make it work?

[Razgovory]

When you add all the shit you have to be able to carry in light infantry it adds up to about 150 pounds.  Are there any women outside of former east german athletes able to carry that load?

Add to that the complete lack of privacy and the need to be able to operate with little to no personal hygene for extended periods of time and you got a situation that makes it completely ridiculous to integrate women in all aspects of the military.

At least it is completely ridiculous to anyone who has actual experience in the arena.  I blame stupid SCIFI and Fantasy novels in making such a ridiculous premise plausible.

Not to mention that such a policy would lead to an exodus of women from the military and cause serious harm to military readiness.

I imagine Hans calling for support over the radio and guy on the other side is wondering when they let eastern European chicks on the front line.

[Admiral Yi]

Why would allowing women into combat roles lead to an exodus of women, and didn't the Soviets make it work?

IIRC the Soviets used women in segregated units.

[Barrister]

When you add all the shit you have to be able to carry in light infantry it adds up to about 150 pounds.  Are there any women outside of former east german athletes able to carry that load?

Plenty.  My 5'10" wife for one.  She never went out for the army, but passed the male physical requirements for the RCMP.

I'm with Meri in that I don't believe in reduced physical requirements for women, but some women are certainly as physically capable as men.

[Hansmeister]

Why would allowing women into combat roles lead to an exodus of women, and didn't the Soviets make it work?

Because the step from "allowable" to "mandatory" is very small and most women would quit rather than taking that risk.  And the Soviets made that work the way everything "worked" in the Soviet Union.