Anyone else looking forward to Dragon Age? (Spoilers and plot discussion here)

[Valmy]

My point was there were periods in our history where not much happened for long stretches.

No there weren't.

Oh lots happened...but not much changed in the way people lived their lives.

[Solmyr]

A couple of peeves:

Was anyone else annoyed with the fact that they'd been at a medieval level of civilization for millenia?.

I don't know...my ancestors in 1600 AD didn't live that dramatically different from my ancestors in 600 BC.  They still farmed by hand.

Actually, they used an ox-drawn plow instead of one pulled by humans, and they used better farming techniques that resulted in more yield than back in 600 BC.

[Valmy]

The D&D Eberron setting actually takes this to its logical conclusion, that magic replaces technology as the driving force of industrialization and transportation development. Most settings usually just ignore this though.

If industrialization was so logical and natural and inevitable why did it only happen after 10,000 years of human civilization and then only get started in one country?  You only think it is logical because now it is taken for granted that that is where human life was going but nobody at the time thought so...at least not at first.

[Valmy]

Actually, they used an ox-drawn plow instead of one pulled by humans, and they used better farming techniques that resulted in more yield than back in 600 BC.

Certainly there were improvements being made from place to place and having oxen and better plows hardly qualifies as a different level of civilization.  A person from 600 BC would be like 'Oh right that's a plow and...oh you are using an animal to pull it that makes sense, now give me that scythe and lets get harvesting.'

Besides the implication in Dragon Age was that Ferelden had been a collection of Barbarian tribes only 400 years previously before being combined into a Kingdom.  So the implication that everything has been absolutely static for millenia is not entirely accurate.  However no the industrial revolution has not started and there is no magically powered high speed trains or anything...presuming that those things are a natural and inevitable developement in every civilized society.

[Syt]

Yeah, but then people start using magic like steam engines and the revolution happens anyway.

That seemed to be the premise of Lost Odyssey.

[Solmyr]

Actually, they used an ox-drawn plow instead of one pulled by humans, and they used better farming techniques that resulted in more yield than back in 600 BC.

Certainly there were improvements being made from place to place and having oxen and better plows hardly qualifies as a different level of civilization.  A person from 600 BC would be like 'Oh right that's a plow and...oh you are using an animal to pull it that makes sense, now give me that scythe and lets get harvesting.'

Besides the implication in Dragon Age was that Ferelden had been a collection of Barbarian tribes only 400 years previously before being combined into a Kingdom.  So the implication that everything has been absolutely static for millenia is not entirely accurate.  However no the industrial revolution has not started and there is no magically powered high speed trains or anything...presuming that those things are a natural and inevitable developement in every civilized society.

Oh, I don't remember what the civilization development was like in Dragon Age, if it was like you say then there's nothing strange about it. And magic has all sorts of stigma attached to it in Ferelden so it wouldn't be used on a large enough scale to trigger an industrial revolution. I was more speaking in the general sense that most fantasy settings ignore technological development past a certain point, starting from Middle Earth (which has been on the same tech level for millennia) and going to various D&D settings which despite the abundance of magic are still in Medieval Stasis. Eberron is the only one that develops the concept of what widespread magic use would likely lead to. Obviously, there are reasons why Medieval Stasis is the normal option most writers and developers take.

[Valmy]

I was more speaking in the general sense that most fantasy settings ignore technological development past a certain point, starting from Middle Earth (which has been on the same tech level for millennia) and going to various D&D settings which despite the abundance of magic are still in Medieval Stasis. Eberron is the only one that develops the concept of what widespread magic use would likely lead to. Obviously, there are reasons why Medieval Stasis is the normal option most writers and developers take.

Well there was something sorta stasis about Medieval culture.  I mean the guild system was still holding on into the 19th century.

But I think the worst is Star Wars.  I mean you have the Old Republic stuff that takes place thousands of years before the Darth Vader stuff and pretty much technology is not signicantly different...thousands of years in a highly technological space civilization and they have not come up one significant advance?

[Queequeg]

Wouldn't rapid development be insanely difficult for any kind of society dependent on magic though?  You have a natural nobility capable of making heaps of mud in to ungoldy killing machines and controlling ravens and shit.  Why would they suffer the common people's complaints or maintain an interest in their development?  Development would only be possible if the technology was "adopted" from other quarters (like in Arcanum) or had become sufficently rare as to be effectively be extinct (Jonathan Strange).

[Solmyr]

Well there was something sorta stasis about Medieval culture.  I mean the guild system was still holding on into the 19th century.

As a student of medieval history I disagree. And just because something endures for a long time doesn't mean it's in stasis. Like we still read books after several millennia, yet the form of those books changed significantly over time.

[Solmyr]

Wouldn't rapid development be insanely difficult for any kind of society dependent on magic though?  You have a natural nobility capable of making heaps of mud in to ungoldy killing machines and controlling ravens and shit.  Why would they suffer the common people's complaints or maintain an interest in their development?  Development would only be possible if the technology was "adopted" from other quarters (like in Arcanum) or had become sufficently rare as to be effectively be extinct (Jonathan Strange).

This is actually another thing that usually gets ignored. I mean, you have all these powerful wizards, capable of destroying cities with a snap of their fingers, yet for some reason they are not ruling the world yet and instead submit themselves to some piddly sword-and-shield types.

[viper37]

But I think the worst is Star Wars.  I mean you have the Old Republic stuff that takes place thousands of years before the Darth Vader stuff and pretty much technology is not signicantly different...thousands of years in a highly technological space civilization and they have not come up one significant advance?

Yes, it's bad.  It seems that there is micro-evolution, but no macro stuff since they discovered they hyperspace lanes 20 000 years ago.
The ship's desing don't really change, but their engines get more efficient and faster than before, same with guns&all other weaponry.

[Grallon]

As a student of medieval history I disagree. And just because something endures for a long time doesn't mean it's in stasis. Like we still read books after several millennia, yet the form of those books changed significantly over time.

I think Valmy and I are talking about something different than what you are refering to.  We're talking about lifestyles that are more or less similar throughout long periods, even though there might be constant micro evolution in material conditions during said periods.

This is particularly obvious when you compare certain past (or even current) lifestyles with ours.  Our modern societies are used to constant, visible changes; look only at communications for instance.  I'm 42 and my grandomother remebered a time with no phone while I'm still alive to see the wireless micro phones.

But in agrarian or hunting/gathering societies change comes slowly.  And tilling the soil or doing the rounds of herding grounds remains similar from one century to the next; whether the earth is tilled with an iron plow or a wooden one - or whether you ride bareback or use stirrups.

And of course, as other have said, in fantasy settings magic often trumps everything - and prevents further developments. 





G.

[Faeelin]

The D&D Eberron setting actually takes this to its logical conclusion, that magic replaces technology as the driving force of industrialization and transportation development. Most settings usually just ignore this though.

If industrialization was so logical and natural and inevitable why did it only happen after 10,000 years of human civilization and then only get started in one country?  You only think it is logical because now it is taken for granted that that is where human life was going but nobody at the time thought so...at least not at first.

Are you asking rhetorically, or are you interested in learning about the subject? My answer depends accordingly.

[Faeelin]

I think Tevinter was a lot more advanced.  I get the impression that between the occasional blight and the constant threat form the Qunari, international trade has yet to recover from Tevinter times.  To be fair, this was basically the situation in Europe for a thousand years, and not even the Huns were as bad as the Darkspawn.

Europe seemed to do pretty well between 526 and 1526, no?

[Faeelin]

Oh lots happened...but not much changed in the way people lived their lives.

Spectacles. Printing presses. New crops and foods, as diets expanded. Gunpowder. Moldboard plows. New techniques in mining. The rise of cities.