The Limits of Free Speech

[Sheilbh]

The death panelists are nutty, but not as nutty as they're being made out to be.

They believe that the President and Democrats in Congress want to have mandatory euthanasia for elderly people and presumably the severely disabled.  They think that, somehow, this passed the House without anyone noticing the mandatory, government run euthanasia program because no-one mentioned it.  What's more the Mainstream Media, abandoned their duty to hold Democrats to account again, and didn't notice the mandatory euthanasia provision.  Without Sarah Palin and Betsy McCaughey alerting the world to this provision it would have just snuck in there.  And in a few years it would be goodnight Vienna for nana.

How much nuttier can you get? 

[Alatriste]

The death panelists are nutty, but not as nutty as they're being made out to be.

How much nuttier can you get?

You forget the alternative. That they are no nutty but merely dishonest, and know perfectly well that the crazy things they are saying are false.

[Admiral Yi]

They believe that the President and Democrats in Congress want to have mandatory euthanasia for elderly people and presumably the severely disabled.  They think that, somehow, this passed the House without anyone noticing the mandatory, government run euthanasia program because no-one mentioned it.  What's more the Mainstream Media, abandoned their duty to hold Democrats to account again, and didn't notice the mandatory euthanasia provision.  Without Sarah Palin and Betsy McCaughey alerting the world to this provision it would have just snuck in there.  And in a few years it would be goodnight Vienna for nana.

How much nuttier can you get?

Are you sure you're not confusing PDH's post with reality?  His was a spoof you know.

It's possible some of the town hall ranters are talking about jack booted government grandpa killing squads, I don't know.  I've only ever seen the back of their heads at the microphone.  The only direct quote I've heard is from Palin, who said she doesn't want the government deciding if her Down's Syndrome baby lives or dies.  Which, like I said, is nutty but not that nutty.

BTW, how're those no blood for oil quotes coming?  I don't think you're going to find anything.

[Sheilbh]

It's possible some of the town hall ranters are talking about jack booted government grandpa killing squads, I don't know.  I've only ever seen the back of their heads at the microphone.  The only direct quote I've heard is from Palin, who said she doesn't want the government deciding if her Down's Syndrome baby lives or dies.  Which, like I said, is nutty but not that nutty.

'The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.'
She added that 'unproductive' members of society would have whether or not they received healthcare judged by government bureaucrats and said that it was 'misleading' for the President to claim that the end of life counselling was 'entirely voluntary'.

BTW, how're those no blood for oil quotes coming?  I don't think you're going to find anything.

I can't find anything about the early protests.  But it's difficult to search for generic Democrats.  The best I've got is a number of Democrats condemning the General Betray Us ad.

Edit:  I've also got Democrat politicians supporting the opposite policy, such as Joe Biden or Clinton, which isn't the same as condemning but would be like a Republican politician not discussing 'death panels' but supporting healthcare reform anyway.  That would seem like possibly the Olympia Snowe route.

[Admiral Yi]

'The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.'
She added that 'unproductive' members of society would have whether or not they received healthcare judged by government bureaucrats and said that it was 'misleading' for the President to claim that the end of life counselling was 'entirely voluntary'.

Right.  That's talking about funding, not euthenasia.

[Sheilbh]

Right.  That's talking about funding, not euthenasia.

Well I think the name 'death panel' that she gives it is, at least, a bit incendiary.  Do you think a mandatory 'death panel' that decides medical funding necessary for someone to live on the subjective basis of their productivity to society is really addressing legitimate concerns about what gets funded in a government healthcare plan?  I mean to me it sounds like a dystopic nightmare of mandatory euthanasia panels, in which the government will withhold care from those who aren't productive, but I'm susceptible to words like 'evil' and 'downright Orwellian'.

[Admiral Yi]

Well I think the name 'death panel' that she gives it is, at least, a bit incendiary.  Do you think a mandatory 'death panel' that decides medical funding necessary for someone to live on the subjective basis of their productivity to society is really addressing legitimate concerns about what gets funded in a government healthcare plan?  I mean to me it sounds like a dystopic nightmare of mandatory euthanasia panels, in which the government will withhold care from those who aren't productive, but I'm susceptible to words like 'evil' and 'downright Orwellian'.

More than a bit incendiary.  I called them nutty, didn't I?  My point is the Democrats are trying to paint the picture that the ranters have created their death panels out of whole cloth, whereas that's not entirely true.

[Sheilbh]

More than a bit incendiary.  I called them nutty, didn't I?  My point is the Democrats are trying to paint the picture that the ranters have created their death panels out of whole cloth, whereas that's not entirely true.

No, you're right there was voluntary end of life counselling offered in the House version (and I think the two Senate ones on offer) of the bill.  The section to do that is largely based on a bill Johnny Isakson's been trying to pass for years (to offer it on Medicare) because it's a pet issue of his.  That part of the bill's since been removed.

It's a lie that bears no recognition to the actual politics of the healthcare bills offered and that requires that you assume the worst of your opponents.

I also think there's a real rational debate to be had about costs in healthcare.  I think all chances for that debate are dead now.

Edit:  It's worth saying Isakson opposes the healthcare bill and says his views on end-of-life counselling are nothing like what the House passed.  Which, to my understanding, isn't wholly the case but it's fair enough.

[Martinus]

Well I think the name 'death panel' that she gives it is, at least, a bit incendiary.  Do you think a mandatory 'death panel' that decides medical funding necessary for someone to live on the subjective basis of their productivity to society is really addressing legitimate concerns about what gets funded in a government healthcare plan?  I mean to me it sounds like a dystopic nightmare of mandatory euthanasia panels, in which the government will withhold care from those who aren't productive, but I'm susceptible to words like 'evil' and 'downright Orwellian'.

More than a bit incendiary.  I called them nutty, didn't I?  My point is the Democrats are trying to paint the picture that the ranters have created their death panels out of whole cloth, whereas that's not entirely true.

Well, presenting a voluntary counseling as a "mandatory euthanasia" death panel pretty much counts as "out of whole cloth" in my book.

It's as if he wanted to start a public works programme and they painted it as reintroduction of slavery.

[Admiral Yi]

Well, presenting a voluntary counseling as a "mandatory euthanasia" death panel pretty much counts as "out of whole cloth" in my book.

It's as if he wanted to start a public works programme and they painted it as reintroduction of slavery.

Sure would.  Who said mandatory euthenasia?

p.s. You also left out Obama's "difficult democratic conversation."

[PDH]

Wait, mine wasn't a real quote?

[Sheilbh]

p.s. You also left out Obama's "difficult democratic conversation."

I think Palin's line far more strongly indicates mandatory euthanasia than Obama's line suggests 'death panels'.

[Admiral Yi]

I think Palin's line far more strongly indicates mandatory euthanasia than Obama's line suggests 'death panels'.

Agreed.  But the cloth is not whole.

[Sheilbh]

The original death panel lady (Betsy Something) was on Jon Stewart the other night.  She claims that everybody is looking at the wrong section of the House bill, the part that talks about physician consultations, whereas the part they should be looking at is about some Medicare doctor rating (which determines their Medicare reimbursement rate) and which under the House bill would be determined in (admitedly minor) part by how many of their patients sign living wills and how many of those who do "adhere to their living wills."

I've just read something that made me think of this.  Apparently doctors are paid, for Medicare, by test and treatment.  Do you think that's what she means by 'Medicare doctor rating'?  Is it simply something doctors would get paid for?

[Admiral Yi]

I've just read something that made me think of this.  Apparently doctors are paid, for Medicare, by test and treatment.  Do you think that's what she means by 'Medicare doctor rating'?  Is it simply something doctors would get paid for?

I can't say you're absolutely wrong but it sure would be a strange use of the English language.