The Limits of Free Speech

[Razgovory]

That really hurt.

Are you gay? I just assume people aren't until they state otherwise. Or flirt with other guys, like Siege does.

And this from my best friend!

[Eddie Teach]

And this from my best friend!

But the statement that you said hurt was "You're like Martinus without the gay?"

Or did you mean it was the Marty part that hurt? Ah ok.

[The Minsky Moment]

Two trials, two hung juries, two mistrials.  This even after Judge Easterbrook gave Turner's defense lawyer a free instructional clinic on constitutional incorporation at the last three-ring circus federal criminal trial.

Fitzgerald is unmoved and is now revving up for trial #3.

Say this for the man, he is persistent.

[DontSayBanana]

Two trials, two hung juries, two mistrials.  This even after Judge Easterbrook gave Turner's defense lawyer a free instructional clinic on constitutional incorporation at the last three-ring circus federal criminal trial.

Fitzgerald is unmoved and is now revving up for trial #3.

Say this for the man, he is persistent.

Of course he is; he's got our tax dollars as a budget.

[The Minsky Moment]

Second necromantic revival on this one.
Turner's appeal was convicted on trial #3 and his appeal was denied by the Second Circuit last week, in a 2-1 panel opinion.

To save the trouble of reading the earlier stuff, this is a case about an "internet radio host", who, in his anger about a ruling in a gun rights case, wrote a blog post naming the 3 senior federal judges who made the ruling, and said they deserved to be killed, and went on with rants in a similar vein.  THe next day he posted their office locations and a map of the anti-truck barriers around the building.

Patrick Fitzgerald, of Scooter Libby trial fame, prosecuted Turner 3 times, ploughing through 2 hung juries, before finally securing a conviction for threatening to kill a federal judge.

As a matter of abstract justice, it is hard to feel sorry for a genuine scumbag like Turner doing 33 months of federal time.   But of course the whole point of free speech rights is they protect everyone, even assholes.

The appeals court opinion is here and the short dissent by Judge Pooler is worth a look: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1635862.html

She argues that the majority confuses the distinction between "true threat" and "incitement".  A "threat" (according to Pooler) is not general advocacy of the use of force but a communication directed to the victim (not third parties) that coveys danger from the speaker.  I.e. "I'm gonna git you sucka" is a threat, though perhaps a vague one.  Whereas "who will rid me of this troublesome priest" is incitement, not threat.  The distinction matters because although it is possible to charge someone criminally for incitement, Turner was not convicted under such a law, and because there are some differences between the constitutional limitations to threats and words of incitement.

[DGuller]

I can see an argument for either one of that.  Obviously it could be an incitement, if the asshole really did try to get those three particular judges killed.  However, I can also see this being a case where the intended audience of such incitement are the judges themselves, just to make them squirm.

[Malthus]

From the other thread, we already know the limits of free speech in Texas - anything that some person on the internet thinks is a "threat". 

[jimmy olsen]

I'm a pretty die hard defender of free speech, but posting that map takes it over the line.

EDIT: Although I agree that it seems to be incitement rather than a threat.

[Ideologue]

The guy deserves to go to jail just for this:

the only thing standing in the way of the judges and "the government" achieving ultimate power "is the fact that We The People have guns. Now, that is very much in jeopardy.

I hate that stupid shit.

It's a lot less plausible in a world with MBTs and airpower and, yes, dreadnoughts, or even an organized standing military, isn't it?  The CSA had millions of guns, and thousands of gun manufactories, yet were pretty helpless to stop the Union achieving ultimate power over them.

The thing standing in the way of "the government" achieving ultimate power is the military's likely unwillingness to carry out unconstitutional action.  If that didn't exist, Obama could dissolve Congress in an instant.  But it's important to yahoos' worldviews that they are the ones holding the line, and not to consider that if a coup d'etat reached the line they're holding, it is far, far too late.

[Ideologue]

Nevermind, I didn't realize this thread was four years old.  What the fuck, whoever?  Edit: fair enough, Joan.

Anyway, Eurofascism triumphs again.

[garbon]

Nevermind, I didn't realize this thread was four years old.  What the fuck, whoever?

Joan kinda clearly said why when he posted an update regarding this guy.

[Ideologue]

Nevermind, I didn't realize this thread was four years old.  What the fuck, whoever?

Joan kinda clearly said why when he posted an update regarding this guy.

WELL NOW I KNOW AND KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE.

[sbr]

[Razgovory]

The guy deserves to go to jail just for this:

the only thing standing in the way of the judges and "the government" achieving ultimate power "is the fact that We The People have guns. Now, that is very much in jeopardy.

I hate that stupid shit.

It's a lot less plausible in a world with MBTs and airpower and, yes, dreadnoughts, or even an organized standing military, isn't it?  The CSA had millions of guns, and thousands of gun manufactories, yet were pretty helpless to stop the Union achieving ultimate power over them.

The thing standing in the way of "the government" achieving ultimate power is the military's likely unwillingness to carry out unconstitutional action.  If that didn't exist, Obama could dissolve Congress in an instant.  But it's important to yahoos' worldviews that they are the ones holding the line, and not to consider that if a coup d'etat reached the line they're holding, it is far, far too late.

Yeah, I always chuckle at that one.  People thinking that their private firearms and gun clubs would intimidate either the government or a possible foreign invader.  That was probably never true. The Revolutionary war, the war of 1812 and the Civil war demonstrated time and time again: Militias suck. And the gulf has gotten even wider. Much better armed, trained, and organized militias in Iraq failed time and time again to stop the army.

[sbr]

MAH FREEDUM