The Limits of Free Speech

[Razgovory]

Where's Hans?  He should be out defending this guy.

[grumbler]

I don't know, I think Grallon's right to some extent.  The US has glorified individual violence and, in a different way, revolt against the state over its history. 

Glorified it more than any other place on earth?  I think not.

[Razgovory]

I don't know, I think Grallon's right to some extent.  The US has glorified individual violence and, in a different way, revolt against the state over its history. 

Glorified it more than any other place on earth?  I think not.

Individual or mass violence?  I don't know.

[Admiral Yi]

Individual violence I can see; revolt against the state is nutty talk.

[Sheilbh]

I don't know, I think Grallon's right to some extent.  The US has glorified individual violence and, in a different way, revolt against the state over its history. 

Glorified it more than any other place on earth?  I think not.

I didn't say glorified more than any other place on earth

Individual violence I can see; revolt against the state is nutty talk.

I think you're right.  The more I think about it Americans seem to me to have a strange relationship with their government, but you're right it's not to do with revolt.

[DGuller]

What I find ironic is that US is prosperous due to its high quality of governance, and yet a large chunk of its population holds it responsible for any and all problems.

[Grallon]

I didn't say glorified more than any other place on earth

You should know by now that grumbler is nothing but semantics

Individual violence I can see; revolt against the state is nutty talk.

I think you're right.  The more I think about it Americans seem to me to have a strange relationship with their government, but you're right it's not to do with revolt.

A special relationship yes, just listen to the 'death tribunal' nonsense - and witness the numbers of those who are ready and willing to lap up that shit...

Deep mistrust, not altogether unfounded, one only has to look at the curtailing of civil liberties during the Cheney administration; but hearing and reading about the goings on of some of those 'conservatives' you'd think the government was out to get the citizenry every step of the way.




G.

[Sheilbh]

A special relationship yes, just listen to the 'death tribunal' nonsense - and witness the numbers of those who are ready and willing to lap up that shit...

Deep mistrust, not altogether unfounded, one only has to look at the curtailing of civil liberties during the Cheney administration; but hearing and reading about the goings on of some of those 'conservatives' you'd think the government was out to get the citizenry every step of the way.

This is what I find weird.  I read it expressed better somewhere else recently, but I can't remember where.  It was basically in response to a liberal writer saying how ridiculous the fears of government healthcare were because the US government wouldn't and perhaps couldn't do anything really dangerous with those powers.

The writer pointed out that the people who think that often also think that the same government spent much of the 8 years renditioning, torturing and hiding people away in secret prisons around the world with no civil liberties.  Conversely a lot of the people who currently suspect Obama's a closet Muslim, wasn't born in this country or wants death panels were the same people who spent the last 8 years arguing for a very strong xecutive with a strong set of accompanying privileges.  That's an odd relationship. 

I mean it's different from the British hypocrisy - which is that government should do more or less everything, but it shouldn't cost much and it shouldn't be in our areas.

[Admiral Yi]

The writer pointed out that the people who think that often also think that the same government spent much of the 8 years renditioning, torturing and hiding people away in secret prisons around the world with no civil liberties.  Conversely a lot of the people who currently suspect Obama's a closet Muslim, wasn't born in this country or wants death panels were the same people who spent the last 8 years arguing for a very strong xecutive with a strong set of accompanying privileges.  That's an odd relationship. 

Not necessarily.  Torture et al affected "them" and provided "us" with security (or at worst case nothing).  Note the completely different treatment that was meted out to US citizen detainees.  Reforming health care affects "us."

Generally agree with Grallon about the paranoid streak though.

[Sheilbh]

or at worst case nothing

At worst you mean if all the worst allegations were true?

[Admiral Yi]

At worst you mean if all the worst allegations were true?

At worst case if all of Cheney's claims are false.

[garbon]

The Cheney Administration.

[Sheilbh]

At worst you mean if all the worst allegations were true?

At worst case if all of Cheney's claims are false.

Okay, and you think that costs nothing?  Or just nothing tangible?

[DontSayBanana]

What we seem to be skirting around is that there's a culture of "personal success" that seems to have had its lines blurred with greed and self-centrism somewhere along the way among the ultra-conservatives: there's a large group which seems to have come into play where detainees' rights are perceived to be in conflict with their own "rights" to safety and security.

[grumbler]

I didn't say glorified more than any other place on earth

No, Grallon did: "I don't think anywhere else is armed violence so mythologized as it is in the States," and you agreed with him "to some extent."  I was simply pointing out that the statement you were "to some extent" defending was hyperbole.  I wasn't saying that you were completely wrong.