The Limits of Free Speech

[grumbler]

You should know by now that grumbler is nothing but semantics  

Yes, i am nothing but the meaning of words, and you are nothiing but the utterance of hyperbole.

A special relationship yes, just listen to the 'death tribunal' nonsense - and witness the numbers of those who are ready and willing to lap up that shit...

I googled "death tribunal" and found the top hits were:

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PETROGRAD A HORROR CITY.; Many Priests Victims of the Russian ...
Many Priests Victims of the Russian Death Tribunal. (ITON, Dec. 12. -- Violent methods are being used by the charged with combating tho revolt against the ...
query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res... - Similar
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Bloody Sunday inquiry: Soldiers 'face risk of death' Tribunal ...
Bloody Sunday inquiry: Soldiers 'face risk of death' Tribunal accused of 'deliberate' exposure.(News) ... find The News Letter (Belfast, Northern Ireland) ...
www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-60194812.html - Cached - Similar
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A SECRET DEATH - IDKFA Video by Tribunal Records (FREE MUSIC ...
Jan 27, 2009 ... Keyword Tags: A, SECRET, DEATH, TRIBUNAL, ISIS, CONVERGE, CULT, OF, LUNA. Total Plays: 494. Added: Jan 27, 2009. Comments: 0 ...
vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual... - Cached - Similar
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UN starts work on Hariri death tribunal. 12/06/2007. ABC News Online
The United Nations has begun work on a special court to try the suspected killers of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik al-Hariri even though a divided ...
www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1948696.htm - Cached - Similar
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Syria Says It May Not Participate in Hariri Death Tribunal - World ...
Syria Says It May Not Participate in Hariri Death Tribunal Fox News.
www.f-bodyhideout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24793 - Cached - Similar

To which of these are you referring (assuming you are not just engaging in more hyperbolic bombast)?

Deep mistrust, not altogether unfounded, one only has to look at the curtailing of civil liberties during the Cheney administration; but hearing and reading about the goings on of some of those 'conservatives' you'd think the government was out to get the citizenry every step of the way.

Ah, the hyperbole about the "Cheney Administration." 

You show every symptom of the "americans" you affect to despise. 

[Eddie Teach]

Try googling "death panel" instead.

[Sheilbh]

I googled "death tribunal" and found the top hits were:
...
To which of these are you referring (assuming you are not just engaging in more hyperbolic bombast)?

Grallon got the phrase used in American political discourse wrong, it's 'death panel'.
First page of Google:

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News results for death panel

Examiner.com   "Death Panels." A most excellent term.‎ - 5 hours ago
By Roger Ebert on August 17, 2009 12:37 PM | Permalink | Comments (7) "Death panels" is such an excellent term. You know exactly what it means, ...
Chicago Sun-Times - 64 related articles »
A death panel for disinformation‎ - Kansas City Star - 503 related articles »
Why the "death panel" claim is working‎ - Atlantic Online - 6 related articles »
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FACT CHECK: No 'death panel' in health care bill - Yahoo! News
Former Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin says the health care overhaul bill would set up a.
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/.../us_health_care_end_of_life_q_a - Cached - Similar
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Palin stands by 'death panel' claim on health bill - Yahoo! News
Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin refused to retreat from her debunked claim that a proposed health care overhaul would create.
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/.../ap.../us_health_care_end_of_life - Cached - Similar
Show more results from news.yahoo.com
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Sarah Palin: Concerning the "Death Panels" | Facebook
12 Aug 2009 ... Facebook is a social utility that connects people with friends and others who work, study and live around them. People use Facebook to keep ...
www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=116471698434 - Cached - Similar
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Sarah Palin: Statement on the Current Health Care Debate | Facebook
7 Aug 2009 ... in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, ...
www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=113851103434 - Cached - Similar
Show more results from www.facebook.com
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The Reaction: "Death Panel"
First appointment to Death Panel. See: http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/paula-abdul-named-to-obama-death-panel/. By Anonymous ...
the-reaction.blogspot.com/2009/08/death-panel.html - Cached - Similar
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Death Panel - Schott's Vocab Blog - NYTimes.com
10 Aug 2009 ... Sarah Palin's uncompromising description of the bureaucrats she claims will ration treatment under Barack Obama's health care plan.
schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/death-panel/ - Cached - Similar
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Palin stands by 'death panel' claim - Health care- msnbc.com
14 Aug 2009 ... Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin refused to retreat Thursday from her argument that a proposed health care overhaul would create "death panels ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32403916/ns/politics-capitol_hill/ - Cached - Similar
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No 'death panel' in health care bill - More politics- msnbc.com
10 Aug 2009 ... Critics who say the health care overhaul bill would set up a "death panel" are wrong.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32364264/ns/politics-more_politics/ - Cached - Similar
Show more results from www.msnbc.msn.com
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Palin: Obama "Death Panel" Could Kill My Down Syndrome Baby
Sarah Palin (R-AK) made a dire statement about health care reform -- that it could result in an Obama-created "death panel" killing her infant son with Down ...
digg.com/.../Palin_Obama_Death_Panel_Could_Kill_My_Down_Syndrome_Baby - Cached - Similar
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The Associated Press: GOP govs sidestep Palin 'death panel' comments
No such "death panel" has been proposed. A provision in the plan passed by a House committee last month would allow Medicare to reimburse seniors who seek ...
www.google.com/.../ALeqM5h3A4LO8eI9ioHm4L9zs2Dh_PoN5wD9A097C00 - Similar
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Blog posts about death panel
Palin: Obama's "Death Panel" Could Kill My Down Syndrome Baby | TPMDC - TPM Election Central - 7 Aug 2009
Howard Dean: The Media's Treatment of Palin's Outrageous "Death ... - Sarah Palin on The Huffington Post - 10 Aug 2009
Grassley Endorses "Death Panel" Rumor: "You Have Every Right To Fear" - The Full Feed from HuffingtonPost.com - 5 days ago

Skipping back a few pages at a time the first non-healthcare thing I found was on page 50:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=death+panel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

[Sheilbh]

I didn't say glorified more than any other place on earth

No, Grallon did: "I don't think anywhere else is armed violence so mythologized as it is in the States," and you agreed with him "to some extent."  I was simply pointing out that the statement you were "to some extent" defending was hyperbole.  I wasn't saying that you were completely wrong.

I think Grallon and I disagree about the extent of the American glorification which is why I only agree with him to some extent :p

[grumbler]

What we seem to be skirting around is that there's a culture of "personal success" that seems to have had its lines blurred with greed and self-centrism somewhere along the way among the ultra-conservatives: there's a large group which seems to have come into play where detainees' rights are perceived to be in conflict with their own "rights" to safety and security.

I'm not sure the people who supported the treatment of the detainees thought about it this clearly.  Most of them (including many on these boards) simply dismissed the issue of ignoring human rights as "part of the way things are in this new, never-before-seen world of the War on Terror."  Basically, it wasn't 'these people have lost their rights because of X," it was "they are terrorists and so never had any rights after they became terrorists."

Not even the fact that there was no evidence of terrorism against most of them bothered many people - they simply assumed they were terrorists even sans evidence, else why would they be at Gitmo to begin with?

And, Yi, the treatment was only different for US citizen detainees because the courts so ordered it.  Bush claimed that he had the power to detain US citizens indefinitely without trial, just as he could foreigners - even US citizens arrested in the US.

[Razgovory]

I didn't say glorified more than any other place on earth

No, Grallon did: "I don't think anywhere else is armed violence so mythologized as it is in the States," and you agreed with him "to some extent."  I was simply pointing out that the statement you were "to some extent" defending was hyperbole.  I wasn't saying that you were completely wrong.

Why are you arguing with Grallon?

[grumbler]

Grallon got the phrase used in American political discourse wrong, it's 'death panel'.
First page of Google:
(snip)

Ah.  I don't follow the Palinisms so wasn't up on this one.  So, Grallon is a fan of hers, or an unfan?  That wasn't clear.

[grumbler]

Why are you arguing with Grallon?

I am having a discussion with Sheilbh.  Look at the text you quoted - that's Sheilbh and I you are quoting, not Grallon and I.

I have discussions with Sheilbh because I think he is a pretty discerning commentator, and what he says often makes me think and wonder, which produces a response from me.

[DontSayBanana]

I'm not sure the people who supported the treatment of the detainees thought about it this clearly.  Most of them (including many on these boards) simply dismissed the issue of ignoring human rights as "part of the way things are in this new, never-before-seen world of the War on Terror."  Basically, it wasn't 'these people have lost their rights because of X," it was "they are terrorists and so never had any rights after they became terrorists."

Not even the fact that there was no evidence of terrorism against most of them bothered many people - they simply assumed they were terrorists even sans evidence, else why would they be at Gitmo to begin with?

And, Yi, the treatment was only different for US citizen detainees because the courts so ordered it.  Bush claimed that he had the power to detain US citizens indefinitely without trial, just as he could foreigners - even US citizens arrested in the US.

There's radical fringe on both sides. I was speaking more of the ones who think than the ultra-right whackos like my grandmother who think everyone that is of arabic or hispanic descent is here illegally.

[grumbler]

There's radical fringe on both sides. I was speaking more of the ones who think than the ultra-right whackos like my grandmother who think everyone that is of arabic or hispanic descent is here illegally.

I am not talking about a radical fringe.  I am talking about people who are quite moderate on this board.  There was a pretty long period when only I and JR (with some occasional help) took the position that what Bush was doing was unconstitutional (though maybe Ideologue was in that camp as well).

I was pretty astonished.  I couldn't believe so many people here simply accepted Bush's claims uncritically.

[garbon]

I couldn't believe so many people here simply accepted Bush's claims uncritically.

I still don't feel bad about that.

[Zoupa]

True. I've weekly meetings with a pro-anarchy group based in Palo Alto. We're considering a move on the SF Armory.

A national myth and the glorification of specific aspects of history doesn't mean that you've organised groups running round trying to re-enact it.  I'm saying the Jacobins are part of the soul of France not that they're still meeting in an old Monastery.  Similarly I think the US's national myth has a glorification of the individual/individualism as a shaping force in history and in revolt against the state, not that you go to meet pro-anarchy groups.

It's garbon, babe. He's not really looking to have a serious discussion. On anything. Ever.

[Eddie Teach]

It's garbon, babe. He's not really looking to have a serious discussion. On anything. Ever.

One of his most endearing traits. 

[garbon]

It's garbon, babe. He's not really looking to have a serious discussion. On anything. Ever.

Nah, you just gotta give me an interesting topic*. Not some bullshit about how Grallon has America pegged.

*For instance, race and its non-existence or gender roles.

[MadImmortalMan]

I'm adding Minority Report to my Netflix queue. I've never seen it.