Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Sophie Scholl]

 

[HVC]

Dguller, pizza is inarguably great, right? Now do me a small favour and imagine yourself in a room with someone who insists on extolling the virtues of pizza nonstop and to the exclusion of all other topics. Worse still there are other people in the room too and anytime you try to have a conversation with them said person interrupts to talk about how great pizza is. How long before you find the situation annoying? A day, a month, the two years that have passed here on languish? And when you find it annoying is it because of your cognitive dissonance or because they won't shut the fuck up about pizza.

I don't get why you two are trying to find some subtextual layer to the blindingly obvious. For someone who purports to  endeavour to fact based discussion above all else your reasoning seems very emotional to me.

*edit* anyway, this is starting to become my own personal obsession it seems . I've said my peace, I tried to say something because I miss old Raz, but going in circles helps no one and I'm verging (already passed? ) on annoying others.

[DGuller]

Dguller, pizza is inarguably great, right? Now do me a small favour and imagine yourself in a room with someone who insists on extolling the virtues of pizza nonstop and to the exclusion of all other topics. Worse still there are other people in the room too and anytime you try to have a conversation with them said person interrupts to talk about how great pizza is. How long before you find the situation annoying? A day, a month, the two years that have passed here on languish? And when you find it annoying is it because of your cognitive dissonance or because they won't shut the fuck up about pizza.

I don't get why you two are trying to find some subtextual layer to the blindingly obvious. For someone who purports to  endeavour to fact based discussion above all else your reasoning seems very emotional to me.

*edit* anyway, this is starting to become my own personal obsession it seems . I've said my peace, I tried to say something because I miss old Raz, but going in circles helps no one and I'm verging (already passed? ) on annoying others.

I just don't think it's as simple as that.  CC tries to belittle or patronize someone in every conversation as well, often with little connection to topic being discussed, but while that can create a hostile environment, it rarely derails things. 

Why is it different with Raz?  Because he's actually striking a nerve.  You can't just swat away what he says, even though many people are looking for justifications to do exactly that.

[crazy canuck]

Let's face it, we think Raz is over-Razzing the Gaza thing because of his mental health issues because we know he has mental health issues.

If Raz was some random new poster, Sophie wouldn't suggesting he changes his medication. So it IS a personal attack.

I didn't see it as attack as much as concern, one which I am sharing.

It's an attack expressed as a "concern", in order to delegitimize someone's viewpoint.  Unless you're completely lacking in social skills, you don't express such concern publicly that sounds very much like a denunciation.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to sound like we were denounce somebody who strongly advocates the killing of civilians. Nope we live in a world where anti-woke forces don't allow that sort of thing in the name of freedom of expression. Or they're just a fucking Russian troll.

So what you're saying is that Sophie's "concern" really was a denunciation? 

No, I'm saying that Sophie's comment was based on the fact that obviously something is going wrong in his life for him to take the position that killing civilians is really a good thing.

But hey, play along with him all you want and encourage him that that is a really good thing to do. I'm sure that that's really gonna help him.

[DGuller]

No, I'm saying that Sophie's comment was based on the fact that obviously something is going wrong in his life for him to take the position that killing civilians is really a good thing.

But hey, play along with him all you want and encourage him that that is a really good thing to do. I'm sure that that's really gonna help him.

I won't pretend to know much about psychiatry, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is that gaslighting won't help anyone, least of all someone who's open with mental health issues.  That's not concern, that's cruelty dressed up as virtue.

[The Minsky Moment]

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-834585

This is a joke, right?
They are referring to a population decline over 100 years!

And the "study" is not a independent academic study including Palestinian or even Christian scholars.  It's written by an Israeli army officer and it is published by the Jerusalem Center for Security and Foreign Affairs, a political pressure group advocating annexation in the West Bank under the euphemism "Defensible Borders for Israel"

Of course there has been a massive decline in the Christian population in Palestine, because it's a lot easier for them to leave for the West than the Muslim population.  Who would stay if they could leave?  Multiple wars followed by a brutal occupation featuring a systematic suffocation of economic opportunity, outright land theft, and uncheck harassment from illegal settlers.  Of course they leave.

[Razgovory]

The population of Gaza went from 5,000 to less than 1,000 under Hamas rule and there are plenty of reports of harassment, forced conversion and land theft by the PA.  So let's not pretend there is a "well tolerated" Christian community in Palestine.

[Razgovory]

No, I'm saying that Sophie's comment was based on the fact that obviously something is going wrong in his life for him to take the position that killing civilians is really a good thing.

But hey, play along with him all you want and encourage him that that is a really good thing to do. I'm sure that that's really gonna help him.

I didn't say it was a good thing.  I said it is not, by itself, wrong.  It is legal under the laws of war.  You are not allowed to target civilians and you are suppose to avoid killing them, but it is not illegal to actually kill them.

[Josquius]

Shouldn't we move this to the swamp?

[The Minsky Moment]

The population of Gaza went from 5,000 to less than 1,000 under Hamas rule and there are plenty of reports of harassment, forced conversion and land theft by the PA.  So let's not pretend there is a "well tolerated" Christian community in Palestine.

Why don't you ask the Christian community in the West Bank who they fear more, and who harasses them more?  It's not even close. A few months ago, settler gangs carried out a pogrom (there is no other word to describe it) in a Christian village, burning houses to the ground, destroying cars, and murdering three residents. Depending on reports, the IDF either stood by or directly assisted.

In the Gaza war, the IDF bombed a 12th century Orthodox church, killing over a dozen. The only Catholic Church in Gaza has been attacked multiple times during the war: Israeli snipers murdered two unarmed women on church grounds, a school run by nuns on church grounds was bombed and destroyed, others were killed and the parish priest injured when Israeli tanks fired at the Church.  Gaza Christians have no love for Hamas, but it is the IDF that has put them in graves and forced them into refugee camps.

The indefensible remains indefensible.  When the Gaza war started, I took Israel's side, gave them every benefit of the doubt, defended their rights to retaliation under international law.  You can look it up; it's right here on languish.  I took them at their word that they were acting in good faith to ensure their security.  That position has long ceased to be tenable.  The attacks against civilians have been wildly disproportionate to any valid military purpose.  Israel took the opportunity to dismantle Hezbollah - good for them. Meanwhile, although Israel has taken out about half the Hamas senior leadership, the other half remains active, and according to US intelligence reports, Hamas has recruited between 10,000 to 15,000 new fighters since the war began, likely fully replacing its losses.  So the military operation has failed its primary objective.

[The Minsky Moment]

I'll do the best I can, but if you (or anyone else) weaponize people's disclosed mental health issues against them, I will step in regardless of who it is.  Frankly I think it's everyone duty to do that, it's one of the most sacred norms we have to upkeep here.

+1

Raz's take on the I-P conflict may be wrong, but it's hardly unusual, either in the position taken or the vehemence with which it is held.  Attack the argument, not the man.                                                                     

[Admiral Yi]

Dguller, pizza is inarguably great, right? Now do me a small favour and imagine yourself in a room with someone who insists on extolling the virtues of pizza nonstop and to the exclusion of all other topics. Worse still there are other people in the room too and anytime you try to have a conversation with them said person interrupts to talk about how great pizza is. How long before you find the situation annoying? A day, a month, the two years that have passed here on languish? And when you find it annoying is it because of your cognitive dissonance or because they won't shut the fuck up about pizza.

I don't get why you two are trying to find some subtextual layer to the blindingly obvious. For someone who purports to  endeavour to fact based discussion above all else your reasoning seems very emotional to me.

*edit* anyway, this is starting to become my own personal obsession it seems . I've said my peace, I tried to say something because I miss old Raz, but going in circles helps no one and I'm verging (already passed? ) on annoying others.

Talking can interrupt, text can't.  If you're talking with Shelf about your favorite beers and Raz starts ranting about antisemitism, you don't have to respond.  You can go on texting about beer.

[crazy canuck]

No, I'm saying that Sophie's comment was based on the fact that obviously something is going wrong in his life for him to take the position that killing civilians is really a good thing.

But hey, play along with him all you want and encourage him that that is a really good thing to do. I'm sure that that's really gonna help him.

I won't pretend to know much about psychiatry, but one thing I'm pretty sure of is that gaslighting won't help anyone, least of all someone who's open with mental health issues.  That's not concern, that's cruelty dressed up as virtue.

Gaslighting is saying something that is false.  Raz clearly needs help but you and Yi keep cheering him on.  Despicable.

[Razgovory]

The population of Gaza went from 5,000 to less than 1,000 under Hamas rule and there are plenty of reports of harassment, forced conversion and land theft by the PA.  So let's not pretend there is a "well tolerated" Christian community in Palestine.

Why don't you ask the Christian community in the West Bank who they fear more, and who harasses them more?  It's not even close. A few months ago, settler gangs carried out a pogrom (there is no other word to describe it) in a Christian village, burning houses to the ground, destroying cars, and murdering three residents. Depending on reports, the IDF either stood by or directly assisted.

In the Gaza war, the IDF bombed a 12th century Orthodox church, killing over a dozen. The only Catholic Church in Gaza has been attacked multiple times during the war: Israeli snipers murdered two unarmed women on church grounds, a school run by nuns on church grounds was bombed and destroyed, others were killed and the parish priest injured when Israeli tanks fired at the Church.  Gaza Christians have no love for Hamas, but it is the IDF that has put them in graves and forced them into refugee camps.

The indefensible remains indefensible.  When the Gaza war started, I took Israel's side, gave them every benefit of the doubt, defended their rights to retaliation under international law.  You can look it up; it's right here on languish.  I took them at their word that they were acting in good faith to ensure their security.  That position has long ceased to be tenable.  The attacks against civilians have been wildly disproportionate to any valid military purpose.  Israel took the opportunity to dismantle Hezbollah - good for them. Meanwhile, although Israel has taken out about half the Hamas senior leadership, the other half remains active, and according to US intelligence reports, Hamas has recruited between 10,000 to 15,000 new fighters since the war began, likely fully replacing its losses.  So the military operation has failed its primary objective.

I do not contest that the settlers are violent thugs; I am contesting the that Christian population is "well tolerated" in Palestine.  You don't drive out 80% of the population through toleration, a foretaste of a one state solution.  The Christian population in Israeli is growing on the other hand.  

[The Minsky Moment]

I do not contest that the settlers are violent thugs; I am contesting the that Christian population is "well tolerated" in Palestine.  You don't drive out 80% of the population through toleration, a foretaste of a one state solution.  The Christian population in Israeli is growing on the other hand. 

People go where the economic opportunity exists.  Palestinian Christians in Israel are discriminated against, but can claim some protection from the Israeli courts. Palestinian Christians in the West Bank face having their land stolen by Israeli settlers without compensation, their houses and cars burned down, and their very lives taken away.  So those that can go to the Americas and Europe.