Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

The loss of 5m elderly sporran-clutchers would take us down from 63.5m to 58.5m  :hmm

I like the Scots too, but it would hardly be a catastrophic loss. Like leaving the EU I see it as a a cultural problem, England will survive and be fine, I'd prefer neither to happen.

[Martim Silva]

Wake me up when London invokes article 50 


I said it here and will say it again: the UK is not allowed to leave the EU and will not do so.

If needs be, the results in Scotland will trump those of the whole of the UK, in order to ensure no Brexit will ever happen.

[Josquius]

The loss of 5m elderly sporran-clutchers would take us down from 63.5m to 58.5m  :hmm

I like the Scots too, but it would hardly be a catastrophic loss. Like leaving the EU I see it as a a cultural problem, England will survive and be fine, I'd prefer neither to happen.

That's the problem. England would survive, not Britain.
Britain stands for tolerance, diversity, freedom, innovation, progressivism and being open to the world.
England stands for small mindedness, ignorance, xenophobia, classism and general purpose "Well I'm afraid of things that are different but at the same time I want to fight them".

I opposed Scottish independence last time around as it would have meant the north would be abandoned to the whims of the south, the balance would have tipped from a roughly equal one (MP wise at least) to one where those with the power get even more power.
Brexit showed that even the north isn't standing up for the north, so without Scotland... we're just done for. Might as well rename the place Greater Greater London and be done with it.

I have no intention of being English. If Scottish independence is on the cards I'm moving to Edinburgh.

[Sheilbh]

I don't think it follows that you can effectively rename England Greater Greater London and that England stands for small-mindedness, ignorance, xenophobia etc.

One of those is true or the other.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Yes indeed, if greater London plus its allies (such as University towns) are going to run the show then England will be (is) a fairly open-minded sort of place. Of course it is very easy to dislike the English after a visit to Stanley or Seaham.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Interesting article in the Guardian :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years

I'd be inclined to tweak it a bit. Such as, maintain the UK's contributions at the current level (not a reduced one). Exclude Britain from the Parliament and other decision-making bodies for the period of the brake. Britain to either remain in the EU or leave at the end of the emergency brake.

Heh, it is probably all just fantasy nonsense from a clique of journalists.

[Josquius]

I don't think it follows that you can effectively rename England Greater Greater London and that England stands for small-mindedness, ignorance, xenophobia etc.

One of those is true or the other.

That's a different London. There are many Londons.
There's London the cockney spawning ground.
There's London, the big smoke where educated people are forced to go to work because that's where the economy is.
Then there's London, the public school boys personal fief, they who pull the strings and dictated that the country would be better off if the entire economy was within easy reach of their front door, and whose ridiculous Oxford Union games got us into this shit in the first place.

[garbon]

[Sheilbh]

Interesting article in the Guardian :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years

I'd be inclined to tweak it a bit. Such as, maintain the UK's contributions at the current level (not a reduced one). Exclude Britain from the Parliament and other decision-making bodies for the period of the brake. Britain to either remain in the EU or leave at the end of the emergency brake.

Heh, it is probably all just fantasy nonsense from a clique of journalists.

That was basically what Cameron asked for. I think it'll probably be seen as too little too late. European leaders keep talking about single market v free movement. I may be wrong but my interpretation of what our politicians are saying is that they've got the message and are choosing free movement as the bigger issue. I don't think Europe's realised this yet.

That's a different London. There are many Londons.
There's London the cockney spawning ground.
There's London, the big smoke where educated people are forced to go to work because that's where the economy is.
Then there's London, the public school boys personal fief, they who pull the strings and dictated that the country would be better off if the entire economy was within easy reach of their front door, and whose ridiculous Oxford Union games got us into this shit in the first place.

Essex, I'll give you - but then it's got characteristics of a left behind area, unemployment of 50% in some areas.

But the most pro-remain regions of England after London were South-East and the South-West (followed by the North-West). Every other region of England went for Leave by 55%+ and sometimes far closer to 60%.

Plus have a look at the constituency map here. The Greater London Metroland was relatively pro-Remain:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisapplegate/why-a-pro-eu-party-could-be-screwed-in-the-next-election?utm_term=.iiO7qONld#.rdvMV86j4

[Josquius]

It's not due to the referendum that I object to England/G.G.London.
My thoughts there long pre-date it, though have been strengthened by the north east so blindly voting for its own destruction.

[Sheilbh]

Sure it's just odd. Normally people moaning about London taking over the country are moaning about how they go to London and barely here English spoken, or how they don't recognise it any more. Not that they're worried London will take over the country and it will somehow end up less open or diverse.

From a London perspective the sense is more that the rest of the country is probably going to force us to be less open and multi-cultural against our will.

[Sheilbh]

Some grim polling for Labour. Tories 43%, Labour 27% which is what happened in 1983. In England, where most of the marginals are, Tories 47% and Labour 26%. In the full poll Labour and the Lib Dems are on 35% (Tories and UKIP on 56%). If that happened the Tories would have a majority of 108. Labour would lose a seat like Bishop Auckland which, with the exception of the National Liberals in 1931, has never been won by any other party since universal suffrage

I should add I don't think Corbyn would be able to lead Labour to as good a result as 27%.

Meanwhile in the Tory party Theresa May hinted over the weekend at something in between the Canadian deal and the EEA. A few journalists are suggesting that, based on her background as Home Secretary and knowledge of free movement regulations and the civil servants she's brought from the Home Office, that she may actually have a very precise idea of what she wants.

The weird disconnect between Europe and the UK continues. They still seem to be talking about 'no single market without free movement' in Europe (which I'm beginning to think is a bad idea all round) while I think the UK debate really does seem to be moving to free movement is the priority and the question is how much economic pain will we have/are we willing to suffer to end it.

[Zanza]

The weird disconnect between Europe and the UK continues. They still seem to be talking about 'no single market without free movement' in Europe (which I'm beginning to think is a bad idea all round)

Their own labour and the renumeration for that labour is the by far most important participation of most people in our economy. If you limit the single market to free trade of goods, services and free flow of capital, you exclude most economic actors and typically the poorer ones and make the single market one of corporations, not people.

[Tamas]

free movement' in Europe (which I'm beginning to think is a bad idea all round)

Thanks

[Richard Hakluyt]

You'd get in anyway Tamas, unless the Tories are planning an exceptionally stupid immigration policy of course, which is not as unlikely as one would like I suppose