Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

I suspect it might have played a part in the building of distrust and paranoia about the obviously uber corrupt county council (what is it with these people and 'corruption'?) but haven't been around paying attention much to comment on the quality of service around it.

In fairness I am fairly convinced there's a huge amount of corruption going on at local council level - all those planning decisions - a la Our Friends in the North. Plus the local press is dying so can't cover local politics the way they used (I think there's an argument for central government setting up some sort of trust to fund local media).

Recently Liverpools Chief Executive got fired and there's now a Serious Fraud Office are investigating the "New Chinatown Development Project", which literally sounds like a name you'd make up in a TV show about local corruption - a sort of council level Line of Duty

[Josquius]

Our Friends in the North is a weird one. Its clearly taking inspiration from T Dan Smith who was eventually convicted of corruption, albeit not when he was working for Newcastle city council, it was in his post-council private business dealings with a London council. And the lesson I take from what went on there is quite the opposite of the assumption many jump to. I'm trying to do a lot of research about Smith at the moment, seems a good topic for a documentary.

But I generally take all council corruption accusations with a pinch of salt. They're clearly coming from people with an agenda and stinks of the same kind of fascy stuff that Trump comes out with. That its still going on with the sheer amount of scrutiny councils are under... It needs very good evidence or just unbelievable. They slightly modify the plans for their new HQ to add a roof terrace? Clearly a conspiracy where they're trying to put a fancy leisure areas for themselves to drink expensive cocktails.

[Sheilbh]

Our Friends in the North is a weird one. Its clearly taking inspiration from T Dan Smith who was eventually convicted of corruption, albeit not when he was working for Newcastle city council, it was in his post-council private business dealings with a London council. And the lesson I take from what went on there is quite the opposite of the assumption many jump to. I'm trying to do a lot of research about Smith at the moment, seems a good topic for a documentary.

I think there's a few big council leaders or planning department heads in the UK who would be ripe for a British Robert Caro to write a biography of - just like Caro did with Robert Moses in New York. I think there's a tradition of this in the US, I've seen biographies of big mayors of Philly and Chicago as well.

Part of the issue I think is that we don't have the mayor tradition and a council leader is maybe a little bit less sexy but there was a point when they had a lot of power. But I would love a book or good documentary about, say, Derek Hatton, Militant Tendency and Liverpool City Council or Ted Knight and Militant in Lambeth, or Ken Livingstone in the GLC, or a book about the post-war London Plan (which only partly happened) and the fight against it to basically demolish central London to build highways. I'm sure there's other big personalities who really dominated their cities.

But I generally take all council corruption accusations with a pinch of salt. They're clearly coming from people with an agenda and stinks of the same kind of fascy stuff that Trump comes out with. That its still going on with the sheer amount of scrutiny councils are under... It needs very good evidence or just unbelievable. They slightly modify the plans for their new HQ to add a roof terrace? Clearly a conspiracy where they're trying to put a fancy leisure areas for themselves to drink expensive cocktails.

Yeah I don't buy that sort of thing but kickbacks from various businesses, planning decisions, adjusting the amount of affordable housing or whatever etc I think there's a fair bit

And in fairness I'm from Liverpool and have seen former Council Leader (and Trotskyist) Derek Hatton who's now a property developer with several Range Rovers with personalised "DEGSY 1" etc licence plates. Since then I've lived in Tower Hamlets where the mayor was removed for electoral fraud and there was lots of issues around corruption - particularly around community events planning - and Southwark which is probably the most development happy borough in London with some slightly questionable projects.

Edit: Actually thinking about it I think Derek Hatton was always Deputy Council Leader. I feel like Militant basically dominated the Labour group and the council but the actual leader was a fairly old, very nice Quaker who was a bit like a Michael Foot figure, even as Militant run things behind the scenes.

[Zanza]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-27/u-k-starts-research-on-brexit-customs-system-due-in-four-months

U.K. Starts Research on Brexit Customs System Due in Four Months

The British government has started to conduct research on its new post-Brexit customs IT system, with four months left before the service is due to go live.

Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs, which is in charge of handling the new customs paperwork that will apply to U.K.-EU trade from 2021, has invited hauliers to participate in rounds of remote-user testing in the coming months for its Goods Vehicle Movement Service (GVMS), according to a memo to the freight forwarding industry seen by Bloomberg News.

The GVMS -- which is set to be used to police cross-Irish Sea trade from Jan. 1 2021, and then all U.K.-EU goods flows from July -- will give freight companies a unique reference number that proves that they have filed the necessary post-Brexit paperwork, such as customs declarations. Without a reference from the GVMS, trucks will not be allowed to cross between the U.K. and EU.

The fact that the GVMS is still in the research and design phase less than 90 working days before it is due to be introduced is a cause for concern in the logistics industry: one freight forwarder, who spoke under condition of anonymity, said they are worried the service won't be completed and functional on time. The new system will be required even if Britain and the EU sign a free-trade agreement.

And while consultation with the industry is welcome, it would have been preferable to do such research during the system design process, said Anna Jerzewska, founder of Trade and Borders, a customs and trade consultancy.

"The Government has made it clear that GVMS is unlikely to be ready for January 1 and as far as we understand there will be back-up procedures in place," she said. "It will be crucial to ensure that such alternatives are available in places where traffic management will be important," she said, citing Kent and the Irish Sea.

In the memo, HMRC says it wants to start the first round of testing "ASAP" due to the shortage of time. The tests will involve hour-long video calls where hauliers try prototypes and give feedback.

"When designing a system that the industry will be using, it is important we work in partnership with them to make sure it suits their and our needs," HMRC said by email. "We will continue to develop our systems in readiness for the end of the transition period and when full border controls are implemented from July 2021."

Starting work on a complex IT system four months before you need it seems rather optimistic.

[Tamas]

After 40 years couldn't we stop with the coalmines? How can anyone reasonably argue that switching the UK toward a service sector economy from coal and industry subsidies was a bad idea, that the country would be better off if we still kept coal mines running no matter what?

[Valmy]

Thatcher was an environmentalist green far left activist. Gaia bless her.

[Sheilbh]

After 40 years couldn't we stop with the coalmines? How can anyone reasonably argue that switching the UK toward a service sector economy from coal and industry subsidies was a bad idea, that the country would be better off if we still kept coal mines running no matter what?

All I'll say is the map of coal-mining areas tracks with both a lot of the "Red wall" seats that went Tory at the last election and ares that went more than average for Leave, and a map of major coal-mining regions tracks. Economic decisions tend to have quite long political consequences

There are political consequences to just embracing technological disruption, causing massive job-losses (on the hope of creative destruction) without planning and a real transition. And there are millions more people employed in service industries like retail and hospitality than were employed in the mines.

Thatcher was an environmentalist green far left activist. Gaia bless her.

Our consumption of coal didn't decline hugely until the 90s, we just bought it from China and other cheaper countries (she was shutting down mines, not coal plants). It's only really gone done very significantly in the last decade.

[Tamas]

After 40 years couldn't we stop with the coalmines? How can anyone reasonably argue that switching the UK toward a service sector economy from coal and industry subsidies was a bad idea, that the country would be better off if we still kept coal mines running no matter what?

All I'll say is the map of coal-mining areas tracks with both a lot of the "Red wall" seats that went Tory at the last election and ares that went more than average for Leave, and a map of major coal-mining regions tracks. Economic decisions tend to have quite long political consequences

There are political consequences to just embracing technological disruption, causing massive job-losses (on the hope of creative destruction) without planning and a real transition. And there are millions more people employed in service industries like retail and hospitality than were employed in the mines.

Thatcher was an environmentalist green far left activist. Gaia bless her.

Our consumption of coal didn't decline hugely until the 90s, we just bought it from China and other cheaper countries (she was shutting down mines, not coal plants). It's only really gone done very significantly in the last decade.

But what annoys me most is that this is being talked about like it was a genuine choice. These industries declined heavily literally everywhere in the world. This shift in the developed world was not a uniquely Thatcher/British thing, it was a global trend, and all Thatcher did was not pissing against the wind trying to stop it anymore. There was absolutely no way mining and heavy industry would have survived competition from the third world without things falling to the standards of the third world.

[The Brain]

No one in Sweden today thinks about the big textile and ship building industries of the mid-20th century that were wiped out in the 70s and 80s. Because we moved on and started Mojang and shit. You can't live your life through the rear-view mirror.

[Josquius]

Thats not why people hate thatcher.

Of course by 2020 there wouldn't be much coal mining ship building or any of that going on.
But that's no reason to hasten their end for ideological reasons with very little thought given to the damage to the country that would result from just scouring parts of the economy and entire towns overnight.
Coal mining was on the way out thought it could have been done in a far calmer, but more gradual and less socially and economically devestating way

Ironically the kind of people who do think we can just reopen the coal mines are actually fairly likely to vote tory these days.

[HVC]

No one in Sweden today thinks about the big textile and ship building industries of the mid-20th century that were wiped out in the 70s and 80s. Because we moved on and started Mojang and shit. You can't live your life through the rear-view mirror.

Sweden peaked a lot longer ago then the UK did. it seem more common to pine the past the closer you are to the peak as you slowly slip down the slope. The swedes of the 1760's  probably still bitched about how great things were 40-50 years earlier

[The Brain]

No one in Sweden today thinks about the big textile and ship building industries of the mid-20th century that were wiped out in the 70s and 80s. Because we moved on and started Mojang and shit. You can't live your life through the rear-view mirror.

Sweden peaked a lot longer ago then the UK did. it seem more common to pine the past the closer you are to the peak as you slowly slip down the slope. The swedes of the 1760's  probably still bitched about how great things were 40-50 years earlier

When did the UK peak? I would say in this context that Sweden may have peaked in the 60s. Was the UK in the 70s and 80s at its peak? *shudders*

[Sheilbh]

But what annoys me most is that this is being talked about like it was a genuine choice. These industries declined heavily literally everywhere in the world. This shift in the developed world was not a uniquely Thatcher/British thing, it was a global trend, and all Thatcher did was not pissing against the wind trying to stop it anymore. There was absolutely no way mining and heavy industry would have survived competition from the third world without things falling to the standards of the third world.

It was a genuine choice: those industries declined more and faster in the UK without any real way of making a transition for those communities. And in Thatcher's defence in her theory of politics and economics it would be wrong for the government to, for example, support new industries or prop-up areas that have declined economically, or having any sort of UK industrial policy. That's picking winners which she was very strongly against. The market would basically do that anyway and the job of government was to get out the way. But I think she was wrong in her "there is no alternative" approach, which you're kind of repeating: the alternatives are other European countries or Japan.

I'm not convinced that worked - I also think people are more sticky than the free market ideologues running the Thatcher government thought. I think this is why there are huge swathes of England that are economically worse off than parts of former East Germany - recovering from the managed de-industrialisation of German unification (with a plan, with transition, with support) has been easier than recovering from Thatcher's market forces. Also it sort of explains the weirdness of lots of UK statistics v other European countries - for example France tends to have large towns and cities as centres of wealth, with an impoverished rural areas, the UK is the opposite.

My point isn't that you can save the coal mines or manufacturing forever - my point is we shouldn't be quite so casual and nonchalant about the potential for a huge diruption to a bit of the economy that employs  seven and a half million people and just tell the people affected that they're luddites who need to get with the all wfh all the time future. We should slow that down to try and make it a managed process, rather than embracing the chaos and letting the market sort it out. We've tried that approach and the consequence is that 40 years later we still talk about it

[Sheilbh]

When did the UK peak? I would say in this context that Sweden may have peaked in the 60s. Was the UK in the 70s and 80s at its peak? *shudders*

1880s, maybe?

[Valmy]

The UK was the workshop of the world now they are the financial service provider of...some of the world.