Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

But, may I ask what my political classification is, so I know what my opinion will be in any given debate?

[Jacob]

But, may I ask what my political classification is, so I know what my opinion will be in any given debate?

You can have whatever opinion you want - and you clearly do - but whenever you post shallow pastiches of positions you disagree with you do run the risk of someone pointing out to you that you're full of shit.

Unless, of course, you identify as a liberal and hold the position you ascribed to them in which case I owe you an apology.

[garbon]

Anti zionist sometimes leads to anti semitism with idiots. And is believed to automatically be the same thing with idiots on the other side.
Generally though no.
Israel has a very particular situation, being a colonial state which is actively in the process of conquering new lands.
Don't take anti zionist to automatically mean Israel shouldn't exist. Most of Israels critics would be happy if Israel pulled back into its borders, reversed those laws that stripped minorities of rights and generally stopped sitting on the Palestinians.

I fear you are trying to make that term more palatable than it is. After all, many of us took issue with Israel's latest move but that doesn't make us all anti-Zionists.

[Josquius]

]

I fear you are trying to make that term more palatable than it is. After all, many of us took issue with Israel's latest move but that doesn't make us all anti-Zionists.

There certainly are die Israel die people in the world.
But the overwhelmingly vast majority of those on the left don't want a genocide.

Don't forget zionist itself can mean different things in different political situations from merely stating Jews should have a state to the full on siegebreaker type expansionist nutcases.

[Richard Hakluyt]

"But the overwhelmingly vast majority of those on the left don't want a genocide."

That's big of them 

[Tamas]

But, may I ask what my political classification is, so I know what my opinion will be in any given debate?

You can have whatever opinion you want - and you clearly do - but whenever you post shallow pastiches of positions you disagree with you do run the risk of someone pointing out to you that you're full of shit.

Unless, of course, you identify as a liberal and hold the position you ascribed to them in which case I owe you an apology.

No need for apologies, I just don't get how generalising to make a valid point about views I disagree with disqualify me as a liberal.

[garbon]

"But the overwhelmingly vast majority of those on the left don't want a genocide."

That's big of them 

Seriously.

[garbon]

I thought the following was interesting as one of the view points expressed where Guardian has got people to respond from different perspectives on the issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/antisemitism-ihra-definition-jewish-writers

A few years ago, I noticed a bizarre comment thread on a Jewish news site over the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia definition of antisemitism (the forerunner of the IHRA's definition). It concerned the (by now infamous) examples of things that "could" be antisemitic, particularly that of "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination". One of the commenters suggested that "the could is unconditional. It is used in the same way as for example a mother saying to a child 'You could go and wash your hands', meaning 'Go and wash your hands'.''

That comment was made by a Zionist, someone who supported the definition. But the comment could just as easily been made by an outraged anti-Zionist. Who was correct? Really it would depend on the application of the definition as much as the definition itself.

It's certainly true that the IHRA definition does tightly constrain anti-Israel and anti-Zionist speech, but it doesn't make it impossible. For instance, while it clearly treats denying the Jewish people's right to self-determination as antisemitic, upholding this right in theory but asserting the impossibility of actualising it in current circumstances should not fall foul of the definition.

In a less febrile age, it might have been possible to see the IHRA definition as a challenge to pro-Palestinian activists to be more creative in their language: after all, whether or not you think Israel is acting just like the Nazis, saying so is predictable, lazy and cliched. Today, though, it seems impossible to imagine when a more nuanced reading of the IHRA definition will be acknowledged as possible.

[Solmyr]

Then explain why if it's really just anti-Israel I don't see calls to boycott any number of countries that I know the UK has relationships with that are far worse than Israel? Where is the boycott/divest movement for say, Saudi Arabia?

I don't know about the UK, but in Finland the left definitely vocally opposes, say, arms deals with Saudi Arabia. And speaks against human rights abuses there.

[Tamas]

Then explain why if it's really just anti-Israel I don't see calls to boycott any number of countries that I know the UK has relationships with that are far worse than Israel? Where is the boycott/divest movement for say, Saudi Arabia?

I don't know about the UK, but in Finland the left definitely vocally opposes, say, arms deals with Saudi Arabia. And speaks against human rights abuses there.

Selling weapons to Saudis is a common complaint nowadays, but more in the context of those weapons used against innocents in Yemen, rather than the domestic policies of the Saudis

[OttoVonBismarck]

That's big of countries that have virtually no arms industry to oppose arms deals with Saudi Arabia. Come talk to me when there's a boycott/divest movement against Saudi Arabia. The reality is Tyr is wrong—there is nothing like it for Saudi Arabia. Show me any kind of movement to ban imports of Saudi oil for example.

For the low IQ readers—boycott/divest is ONLY found in America among Democrats and specifically progressive ones, largely popular in the college idiot leftist crowd. If you zoom over to Britain Jeremy Corbyn is literally the British version of one of those people but 50 years older.

Not to mention idiots like Bernie Sanders who has gone after Israel several times as a self-hating Jew but was happy to visit the Soviet fucking Union for his honeymoon.

[Josquius]

Yeah. We love Muslims and let them get away with anything. We just want to kill Jews because they smell.

Oh wait.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mohammad-bin-salman-saudi-arabia-protests-downing-street-state-visit-uk-yemen-a8244861.html

[crazy canuck]

I'll never understand how liberals seem to be fine with trade and relationships with many of the world's worst autocracies, but chooses to focus so much ire on Israel.

Who are you including in your definition of "liberals"

You fucking know who--just stop.

No, actually I don't.  Right wing Americans use the term "liberal" to describe anybody they disagree with.  I am wondering if you are one such person.

[garbon]

Yeah. We love Muslims and let them get away with anything. We just want to kill Jews because they smell.

Oh wait.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mohammad-bin-salman-saudi-arabia-protests-downing-street-state-visit-uk-yemen-a8244861.html

Which at 'hundreds' is one of London's smaller protests.

Say this one was larger...https://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2018/04/gaza-london-protesters-denounce-killings-palestinians-180407172616217.html

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'll never understand how liberals seem to be fine with trade and relationships with many of the world's worst autocracies, but chooses to focus so much ire on Israel.

Who are you including in your definition of "liberals"

You fucking know who--just stop.

No, actually I don't.  Right wing Americans use the term "liberal" to describe anybody they disagree with.  I am wondering if you are one such person.

I tend to use it to mean "stupid people on the left", so I'll let you decide.