Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

Pedants' corner :

Myanmar is the fancy literary name of the country, whereas Burma is the more colloquial name; so both are correct or incorrect according to the situation they are used in.

Oh thanks for that RH, didn't know that.

I was just going on what some Burmese said they prefer.

I think it is almost impossible for us to get it right. The military junta seems to have favoured "Myanmar" possibly because that title demands patriotism  , but that has added another layer of complexity.

I usually call it Burma because (a) it was the name I first learned for that country and (b) I think I'm being anti the junta by doing so; but who knows?

[Jacob]

I'll never understand how liberals seem to be fine with trade and relationships with many of the world's worst autocracies, but chooses to focus so much ire on Israel.

For some it's because they are antisemites. For the rest, I think, even if they wouldn't admit it even to themselves, they consider Israeli Jews white people so they hold them to different standards than third world coloured people.

You can see for example, how a lot of the London protesters against Trump were focusing on their gay/transgender/etc identity or their concern for these groups. Well, at least that seemed to be the impression I gathered from the Guardian et al. However, if the visit of the Saudi king received any protests they were much smaller, despite the worst of Trump's supposed views being far better than Saudi reality when it comes to gay or minority rights.

Why? Because America is "one of us", and Saud Arabia is an Arab country therefore doesn't really matter.

Tamas, you're not well placed to speak on behalf of liberals - whatever OvB may have meant by the term.

[Razgovory]

Can't speak to the specific British context but "anti-Zionism" is very commonly a pretext for anti-Semitism.  Hard to be otherwise.  Can you imagine some saying that are "anti-Arab" (i.e. Arab nationalism) but have no problems with Arabs as persons? Of all the nationalisms in the world, why is it acceptable specifically to be against Zionism?

It's as acceptable as being against, for example, Burmese nationalism, or Serbian nationalism, when it takes the form of ethnic cleansing.

Funny, those are the exact same nationalisms that sprang to mind when I read JR's post. Though I'd add they have distasteful charactericistic even without the proven ethnic cleansing and massacres of the innocents.

Is there a big movement to deprive Serbians of their country?  What about the Burmese?  Is the existence of Myanmar a crime in of itself?

Many 'talented' Serb nationalist have been trying to do that down the long last century.

As to your wider point, many Burmese do seem to think that way and for good reason; if the right to national self-determination still existed in a practical way in the modern world, then yes, I don't think Myanmar* would exist.

* Plenty of Burmese also object to that name, it being largely a construct promoted by the corrupt military.

No, you missed the wider point.  The anti-Zionist program is build on the idea that the people of Israel should not have a state.  This is quite beyond simply criticizing a country, it's that another country should not even exist.  There really aren't similar movements as wide-spread devoted to the eradication of Serbia.

[mongers]

Can't speak to the specific British context but "anti-Zionism" is very commonly a pretext for anti-Semitism.  Hard to be otherwise.  Can you imagine some saying that are "anti-Arab" (i.e. Arab nationalism) but have no problems with Arabs as persons? Of all the nationalisms in the world, why is it acceptable specifically to be against Zionism?

It's as acceptable as being against, for example, Burmese nationalism, or Serbian nationalism, when it takes the form of ethnic cleansing.

Funny, those are the exact same nationalisms that sprang to mind when I read JR's post. Though I'd add they have distasteful charactericistic even without the proven ethnic cleansing and massacres of the innocents.

Is there a big movement to deprive Serbians of their country?  What about the Burmese?  Is the existence of Myanmar a crime in of itself?

Many 'talented' Serb nationalist have been trying to do that down the long last century.

As to your wider point, many Burmese do seem to think that way and for good reason; if the right to national self-determination still existed in a practical way in the modern world, then yes, I don't think Myanmar* would exist.

* Plenty of Burmese also object to that name, it being largely a construct promoted by the corrupt military.

No, you missed the wider point.  The anti-Zionist program is build on the idea that the people of Israel should not have a state.  This is quite beyond simply criticizing a country, it's that another country should not even exist.  There really aren't similar movements as wide-spread devoted to the eradication of Serbia.

No I saw it, but didn't respond as it wasn't related to my narrower comment.

[Admiral Yi]

So patient, not dim.

[mongers]

So patient, not dim.

Passes the time whilst I wait for sleep. 

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'll never understand how liberals seem to be fine with trade and relationships with many of the world's worst autocracies, but chooses to focus so much ire on Israel.

Who are you including in your definition of "liberals"

You fucking know who--just stop.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Except it really is.
I'm a British leftist, I know plenty of very far left British people.
It's all about Israel. Anti-capitalism doesn't at all have an evil Jewish banker slant in the modern UK. The only place you see that sort of thing is from the far right with their massive hatred of George Soros.
I get the impression from most of these anti-zionists on the left that they're not even aware of the details of historic anti-semitism and the jews are running the world stuff.

Then explain why if it's really just anti-Israel I don't see calls to boycott any number of countries that I know the UK has relationships with that are far worse than Israel? Where is the boycott/divest movement for say, Saudi Arabia?

[dps]

Why don't we let the Jews themselves decide what is antisemitic?  We let other groups do that.  We don't lecture gays on what they can and can not consider homophobia.  Why should Jews be different?

I'm not sure that I agree that we do or should allow other groups carte blanche to determine what does or does not constitute bigoty against them.  Among other things, while there may be a widespread consensus within a minorty group on the issue, such groups are not monolithic.

[Jacob]

You fucking know who--just stop.

There are very few groups - and none on the Eastern side of the Atlantic - that I'd describe as "liberal" which match your description. I'm pretty sure none of the self-described anti-Zionist activists Labour's left flank would describes themselves as liberal, nor do they match any definition of "liberal" except the American generalization that describes everything to the left of the GOP as "liberal" - and I don't think your statement is anywhere accurate when applied to such a broad group.

So no, I don't fucking know who you mean.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yeah lets pretend like no one on this forum has ever heard the American definition of liberal used before, is this EUOT c.2001? For fuck's sake. There's like 20 people on this forum who have posted for 10+ years, you know exactly what I mean and the context.

[Jacob]

Yeah lets pretend like no one on this forum has ever heard the American definition of liberal used before, is this EUOT c.2001? For fuck's sake.

No, let's not cover everything to the left of the GOP with accusations of focusing "so much ire on Israel".

[Valmy]

Yeah lets pretend like no one on this forum has ever heard the American definition of liberal used before, is this EUOT c.2001? For fuck's sake. There's like 20 people on this forum who have posted for 10+ years, you know exactly what I mean and the context.

What is the 'American' definition of 'Liberal'? Being an American I would love to fully understand it because I am not entirely sure.

In any case those to the left of me left it behind for 'progressive' long ago and those on the right tend to rail against the 'left'. So it seems kind of a dead term for everybody to the left of wherever the Republican Party is hanging out at the moment.

But it is not like Democratic politicians have been against Israel as a group so I do not even understand WTF you are talking about if you are referring to them.

So yeah. Who the fuck is a liberal and how are these liberals against Israel? I mean I am not a huge fan of Israel but certainly no more or less than other ethnically based nationalist states.

[Josquius]

Then explain why if it's really just anti-Israel I don't see calls to boycott any number of countries that I know the UK has relationships with that are far worse than Israel? Where is the boycott/divest movement for say, Saudi Arabia?

They do.

Israel gets a lot of attention I guess though because there are people actively for and against it. With stuff like Saudi Arabia we are all in agreement that it has a bad human rights record.
Keep throwing wood on the fire and it will grow bigger and attract more people to it.

Also to consider is that there are a lot of peculiarities around Israels position.

Can't speak to the specific British context but "anti-Zionism" is very commonly a pretext for anti-Semitism.  Hard to be otherwise.  Can you imagine some saying that are "anti-Arab" (i.e. Arab nationalism) but have no problems with Arabs as persons? Of all the nationalisms in the world, why is it acceptable specifically to be against Zionism?

Anti zionist sometimes leads to anti semitism with idiots. And is believed to automatically be the same thing with idiots on the other side.
Generally though no.
Israel has a very particular situation, being a colonial state which is actively in the process of conquering new lands.
Don't take anti zionist to automatically mean Israel shouldn't exist. Most of Israels critics would be happy if Israel pulled back into its borders, reversed those laws that stripped minorities of rights and generally stopped sitting on the Palestinians.

[Tamas]

Tamas, you're not well placed to speak on behalf of liberals - whatever OvB may have meant by the term.

Ah, ok. I am sorry.