Shootings and explosions in Paris

[Admiral Yi]

Yep.  Slavery "worked", which is why I brought it up with Yi statements on only adopting what "worked".  If think solely on what "worked", then we should consider slavery.  Of course other things besides Yi's neoliberal stance "worked".  The world economy wasn't constantly spirally down with negative growth before the 19th century and America isn't pinning for the economic heyday of 1936 the year before we instituted a minimum wage.

You've tried to wedge this slavery argument into several other issues where it didn't work.

[Razgovory]

Yep.  Slavery "worked", which is why I brought it up with Yi statements on only adopting what "worked".  If think solely on what "worked", then we should consider slavery.  Of course other things besides Yi's neoliberal stance "worked".  The world economy wasn't constantly spirally down with negative growth before the 19th century and America isn't pinning for the economic heyday of 1936 the year before we instituted a minimum wage.

You've tried to wedge this slavery argument into several other issues where it didn't work.

Which ones were you unsatisfied with?

[Martinus]

Can we stop feeding Raz's insane fancies and instead focus on the fact that police cars and ambulances are attaked with stones in a European capital when conducting an anti-terrorist action? I would like to see Norgy spin it in a way that allows him to still feel smug.

[Liep]

Can we stop feeding Raz's insane fancies and instead focus on the fact that police cars and ambulances are attaked with stones in a European capital when conducting an anti-terrorist action? I would like to see Norgy spin it in a way that allows him to still feel smug.

So far from his posts I've gathered that Norgy like any other person isn't happy about the effect that living in ghettos has on people.

[Martinus]

Ah, so I guess it's "Immigrants are great and if they aren't, it's Western white man's fault". Yeah, this one is very good - you can feel smug no matter the reality.

[Razgovory]

Ah, so I guess it's "Immigrants are great and if they aren't, it's Western white man's fault". Yeah, this one is very good - you can feel smug no matter the reality.

Why don't you make a deal?  They take a stand against immigrants in exchange for recriminalizing homosexuality?  That way we get intolerance for all.

[Liep]

Ah, so I guess it's "Immigrants are great and if they aren't, it's Western white man's fault". Yeah, this one is very good - you can feel smug no matter the reality.

You can choose to blame the immigrants for choosing to continue life there, the imams that advise them to stay, the "white man" for creating a system that favours it, or one of the countless other reasons I'm sure there are.

Smugness can be achieved in many of the reasons depending on your political flavour I guess.

[Martinus]

Ah, so I guess it's "Immigrants are great and if they aren't, it's Western white man's fault". Yeah, this one is very good - you can feel smug no matter the reality.

Why don't you make a deal?  They take a stand against immigrants in exchange for recriminalizing homosexuality?  That way we get intolerance for all.

Immigrants are the most violently homophobic people in Europe at the moment, so sorry, no dice.

[Martinus]

Ah, so I guess it's "Immigrants are great and if they aren't, it's Western white man's fault". Yeah, this one is very good - you can feel smug no matter the reality.

You can choose to blame the immigrants for choosing to continue life there, the imams that advise them to stay, the "white man" for creating a system that favours it, or one of the countless other reasons I'm sure there are.

Smugness can be achieved in many of the reasons depending on your political flavour I guess.

I believe in a sort of Occam's razor where adults are responsible for their actions and only if that explanation does not work, you find an external cause. No matter the system or imams etc., there should be at least some onus on people choosing to migrate to a country to try and assimilate to its culture.

[Liep]

I believe people will mostly do what's easiest no matter what you might expect of them.

[Martinus]

I believe people will mostly do what's easiest no matter what you might expect of them.

But then neither do we have any moral or legal obligation to take them in or keep them here. Responsibility is a two-way street. The "easiest" for Europeans to do is what FN and Wilders say we should do - I thought we were trying to find out what's the right thing to do, not the easiest one, though.

[Liep]

Yeah, that's why the right is getting more and more popular. I'm not advocating just going with the easiest solution, but I feel that is the explanation of why some migrants chose a life on benefits in the ghettos and why some politicians thought that was okay.

[frunk]

I believe people will mostly do what's easiest no matter what you might expect of them.

I would define easiest here as "takes least thought".  People frequently get in the habit of doing things that require quite a bit of work, but if it's what they are used to they'll do it even if there's an easier way.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The "easiest" for Europeans to do is what FN and Wilders say we should do -

That's not going to be the easiest. Reversing islamisation of Europe is going to be a hard long slog with lots of violence.
The easiest course of action is going forward as we are and having our societies turn muslim one small step at a time. Easiest for us of course, and our children and grandchildren be damned.

------
opinion from Luckas Vander Taelen, former parlimentarian for Green! (the ecologists):

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/opinieblog/opinie/1.2605158

Who dares to say something, was a frightened white man - Vander Taelen
Sat 03/19/2016 - 09:16 Luckas Vander Taelen
Luckas Vander Taelen, like Brussels, but now he thinks: "Ça suffit, j'en ai marre." He hopes that finally everyone finally dares to face the reality and humbly admits that being allowed to rot problems.
I've Friday afternoon followed the spectacular action of the security services in Brussels, zapping between four channels in two languages. A unique experience: from Vorst I watched what happened beyond a few kilometers. Live from Molenbeek. Two days earlier I had already been to see terrible images that time from my own congregation then. In a neighborhood where I occasionally shop, an Algerian had a heavy weapon fired at the police and had fled his dangerous companions over the rooftops. And disappeared.
All night a helicopter circled above our garden. An unpleasant experience; an uncomfortable feeling of menace crept over me.
When I looked Friday to the siege in Molenbeek, increased at a certain moment a smoke out of an apartment block. In each of Brussels familiar surroundings, an ordinary street with some shops, a butcher and a pharmacy police had deployed large resources. I bike ever passed in the Four Wind Street.
Now I saw that house in which banal banal street with the eyes of millions of viewers will get to see it and think it is there war in Brussels.
I thought, these terrorists have managed something very precious to permanently destroy: our sense of security safe in the city. I was overcome by a feeling of sadness. So far it's thus come into my town, which has become of it.
When I sat mesmerized watching these images, was a terrible thought in my head: we must learn to live with extreme violence of terrorists, they will be part of our new realities.
Three days later so arrested a man in Molenbeek, who sought throughout Europe since the attacks of Paris, but all the time in hiding was in Brussels. He was suspended from one to the other safe apartment, until they came to him almost by accident on the track, thanks to fingerprints he had left behind in Forest.
Apparently, he could count on a sophisticated network to keep him hidden. When Jan Jambon is a long time ago wondering how it was that Abdeslam could hide for so long, he had alluded to the role of its immediate surroundings.
It immediately earned him criticism that he stigmatized the Maghreb community. But now it appears that a whole gang of Brussels friends and relatives had no problem to help a man who was involved in November in one of the worst attacks in Western Europe since the end of the Second World War. Now tell people away that everyone knew what was Abdeslam.
Omerta?
Said people in this neighborhood do not immediately to the police because they believe there is such a thing as a war that justifies all means, waged in the name of a god? Were they in the name of their religion willing to keep a murderer from the hands of the court?
Or is it easier to: existing in the Maghreb community a holy omerta, where confession treason seen and unacceptable violation of the honor? I have this phenomenon often seen working with parents of criminals who remain in evidence against any claim that their sons are innocent lambs.
That they misunderstood solidarity and principled denial exist, unfortunately, yesterday also revealed when youths near the Four Wind Street police cars pelted with stones and shouted that was the part of them. That is to say the least not exactly an exciting thought.
Or will the weather so that one should not say this, because it would stigmatize and they prefer to keep the cherished idea of ​​harmonious multiculturalism alive?
Sigh. Thus, it is for many years.
For years it has been a Brussels specialty to deny, minimize and perspective problems. I read it once again Saturday in a newspaper article where my description of the atmosphere has been "refuted" in low-Prince.
It's all so bad, the journalist wrote, the people are friendly and it was all so bad with that Islamization: you can still drink a beer. Sigh. As it is for years: ignore facts and looking away to get his ideological right.
A robbery with weapons of war was a "fait-divers". Students who were afgedreigd with guns every day and robbed, the mayor looked rather the other way. Neighborhoods where almost everything went wrong and the power was gradually taken over by local gangs, as they talked rather not too loud. And we had to talk about the positive side ...
How easy was violence, insecurity, Islamic radicalization and increasing religious pressure tolerated in this city!
Who dared to say something was a frightened white man, an Islamophobic or a provincial Stalinist Flemish coward who had understood nothing of life in the big city Brussels.
But now I understand it indeed. Ça suffit, j'en ai marre. I'm tired. My feelings of sadness has given way to one of anger. I do not want away and just be a sense of unease in my town.
I'm sick of electoral cowardice and opportunism continue to make it in politics, and that reality is covered with ideological wishful thinking. Which has for years ensured that it was so difficult to call problems by their name and we hatched a smoking apartment in Molenbeek, which very many people in the neighborhood knew there huddled the most wanted terrorist in Europe.
What should dare to face the reality finally face after Vorst and Molenbeek still happen in this city for its guardians and humbly admit that they have let the rot problems?

and from the same person, about a week earlier:
http://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/waarom-wat-in-vorst-gebeurde-allerminst-verbazend-is/article-opinion-679035.html

"Why what happened in Vorst, is far from amazing '

As a resident of Vorst Luckas Vander Taelen is particularly surprised to see the amazement around the antiterrorist operation in Forest. "What is happening today in Vorst, could happen tomorrow in many other municipalities of Brussels."

Almost the entire Tuesday night and circled a police helicopter over our neighborhood. One of the most exciting moments of the security forces had been all day in progress, not far from where I live in Vorst. I received several phone calls from reporters, who knew clearly that I have long been living in this town and have also been a while ships. They apparently knew Vorst absolutely not ...

The journalists who contacted me seemed surprised that the police was looking for accomplices of the terrorists in the Parisian church that is only known to the general public through his music temple and the Audi factory. Apparently Molenbeek received after the dramatic events of November by the massive media coverage of such a reputation as a base for all kinds of dangerous riffraff that the media are conveniently fixated on this part of Brussels. And forget that we are living in a big city where everyone can move easily and thus hide.

Surprised me in the least what happened yesterday in my community. It was already clear that we are not dealing with highly structured terrorist cells that are controlled centrally by a mysterious Darth Vader. There IS a flag is found does not alter this finding. The researchers knew very quickly that it turns more on informal networks of friends and who are bound by no municipalities. What is happening today in Vorst, so tomorrow can in many other municipalities of Brussels. Not only in Molenbeek-ridden, but also in Schaerbeek, Anderlecht, part of Brussels City. And why not elsewhere in municipalities where one would not expect it?

But terrorists are only human, and easily fall back on their own contacts. Whoever immigrant born in Molenbeek, is not so quick in Woluwe-Saint-Lambert or Bosvoorde, but feels more at ease in those municipalities where friends and family live in similar neighborhoods. And it is for their not exactly a cultural shock to come to low-Prince could be greatly different from the somewhat better-off, higher part of the town which leans against Saint-Gilles. Laag-Vorst, not far from the canal, has a rapidly growing impoverished population, which lives in the workers' houses built a century ago here at a time when Frost was known for its industry. Factories are now close at Audi after.

I have often written about Vorst. In the first column nearly seven years ago, I talked about how the town had slowly changed, how more and more veiled women running around and loitering any kind were rebels without a cause. Restless it has never been more here, after the turbulent youth riots in the nineties. But it was in the Mérode Muriel Degauque lived, which was the first Belgian suicide terrorist blew up in Iraq. In the same street also was a long time an anti-Semitic banner, after demonstrations against Israel. The pool is turned into an Islamic cultural center, which also wants to establish a faith-based school.

Often I was accused that I stigmatized the Muslim community in my articles. But I heard myself immigrant friends who live in the Mérodeneighbourhood, they increasingly feel alienated from their environment and themselves off from social contacts, because this is the only way to escape the growing influence of fundamentalists. Yet a decade ago, one saw almost no veiled women; a Moroccan friend mockingly called them "beguines". Last week I saw a young woman in burqa. No shopkeeper dares open his shop on Friday, Lord's day for Muslims. Boucherie Islamique is opened on the corner of my street; in my neighborhood, there is no snack without halal stickers on the display. The local pizzeria has an Italian name, but the prosciutto has long been replaced by turkey fillets. Wine or beer, there is not obtainable.

These are the kind of little things which are not seen immediately, that have radically changed certain districts in Laag-Vorst. The same slow, almost imperceptible transformation is also evident in some other municipalities of Brussels. This has ensured that Molenbeek expats feel at many places at ease and submerge. It makes the work of the security services any easier ...

[frunk]

The "easiest" for Europeans to do is what FN and Wilders say we should do -

That's not going to be the easiest. Reversing islamisation of Europe is going to be a hard long slog with lots of violence.
The easiest course of action is going forward as we are and having our societies turn muslim one small step at a time. Easiest for us of course, and our children and grandchildren be damned.

That's why I prefer the "least thought" formulation.  Too many people coming?  Get rid of them!