Shootings and explosions in Paris

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The "easiest" for Europeans to do is what FN and Wilders say we should do -

That's not going to be the easiest. Reversing islamisation of Europe is going to be a hard long slog with lots of violence.
The easiest course of action is going forward as we are and having our societies turn muslim one small step at a time. Easiest for us of course, and our children and grandchildren be damned.

That's why I prefer the "least thought" formulation.  Too many people coming?  Get rid of them!

you know the situation is getting dire when solutions like that make a return.

the stupidity of it all. Take antwerp for example: The mayor is currently both the most popular and most hated politician of country (depending on position on political spectrum). When recently reports emerged that in certain boroughs up to 80% of the children were of islamic-migrant (usually moroccan) descent some of his detractors couldn't hide their Delight (the mayor is after all rightwing and thus worse than Hitler). Of course these same people forgot to think about what this would mean for the survival of the progressive values they hold dear...

[Razgovory]

Ah, so I guess it's "Immigrants are great and if they aren't, it's Western white man's fault". Yeah, this one is very good - you can feel smug no matter the reality.

Why don't you make a deal?  They take a stand against immigrants in exchange for recriminalizing homosexuality?  That way we get intolerance for all.

Immigrants are the most violently homophobic people in Europe at the moment, so sorry, no dice.

Can't help but get the feeling that now you are comfortable that gay rights are protected you just want to pull up the lifeboats.

[Martinus]

No, I just realised that the left has been making a horrible (and potentially suicidal) mistake by equating rights of women and gays with rights of muslims. Islam represents the most anti-women and anti-gay ideology in the world right now - much worse than the Western Christian Patriarchy the left has spent decades fighting. Only because some culture is so shitty it is an underdog it does not mean one should support it - it's like preferring human-sacrificing Aztecs over Spanish conquistadors.

[Berkut]

The ultra-left's bizarre and seemingly automatic siding with the underdog, regardless of how odious said underdog might be, is a rather odd thing.

[Jaron]

Yup.

Letting Muslims into your countries because you feel bad for them is like letting rats into your homes because they are cute and fuzzy.

[Berkut]

The ultra-left's bizarre and seemingly automatic siding with the underdog, regardless of how odious said underdog might be, is a rather odd thing.

Just to be clear - I am NOT siding with Marty's stance here. I don't think closing borders is practical or useful.

[Barrister]

Yup.

Letting Muslims into your countries because you feel bad for them is like letting rats into your homes because they are cute and fuzzy.

[Valmy]

The ultra-left's bizarre and seemingly automatic siding with the underdog, regardless of how odious said underdog might be, is a rather odd thing.

I liked how in history class there would be this rush to idealize whomever the losers were from the leftists. Like some French Huguenot would be all noble one week but then would go slaughter some Irishmen and suddenly ooooh so bad. Same dudes serving the same cause...

[Razgovory]

No, I just realised that the left has been making a horrible (and potentially suicidal) mistake by equating rights of women and gays with rights of muslims. Islam represents the most anti-women and anti-gay ideology in the world right now - much worse than the Western Christian Patriarchy the left has spent decades fighting. Only because some culture is so shitty it is an underdog it does not mean one should support it - it's like preferring human-sacrificing Aztecs over Spanish conquistadors.

You are confusing toleration with support.  Also, your attitude has gone beyond just Muslims recently...

[Valmy]

The ultra-left's bizarre and seemingly automatic siding with the underdog, regardless of how odious said underdog might be, is a rather odd thing.

Just to be clear - I am NOT siding with Marty's stance here. I don't think closing borders is practical or useful.

There has to be a humane and reasonable way to handle refugees. I mean these refugee crises happen pretty regularly yet everybody is always caught by surprise.

[Berkut]

The ultra-left's bizarre and seemingly automatic siding with the underdog, regardless of how odious said underdog might be, is a rather odd thing.

Just to be clear - I am NOT siding with Marty's stance here. I don't think closing borders is practical or useful.

There has to be a humane and reasonable way to handle refugees. I mean these refugee crises happen pretty regularly yet everybody is always caught by surprise.

I think the details are pretty much always something of a surprise. Where they are coming from, where they are going, what they want, etc., etc.

Also, the "plan" when there isn't a crisis always amounts to "Avoid the crisis!" because actually admitting that you would contemplate taking in hundreds of thousands or millions of refuges absent a crisis is almost certainly a political non-starter.

[Martinus]

The ultra-left's bizarre and seemingly automatic siding with the underdog, regardless of how odious said underdog might be, is a rather odd thing.

Just to be clear - I am NOT siding with Marty's stance here. I don't think closing borders is practical or useful.

Since when this is my stance? 

My stance is:

1. Being concerned about Muslim immigration does not mean you are a racist.
2. There is a problem with Muslim immigration and until we recognise there is a problem, we will not be able to come up with an appropriate solution.
3. Also, until we recognise there is a problem, we will be pushing more and more people into the hands of right wing populists.

Edit: Admittedly, the fact is that "close off borders" is right now the only solution on the table - everything else is the establishment and the left having their heads deeply in their asses and saying there is nothing wrong and those who think something is wrong are racist xenophobes (like we have seen done in this thread over and over again).

[Barrister]

The ultra-left's bizarre and seemingly automatic siding with the underdog, regardless of how odious said underdog might be, is a rather odd thing.

Just to be clear - I am NOT siding with Marty's stance here. I don't think closing borders is practical or useful.

Since when this is my stance? 

My stance is:

1. Being concerned about Muslim immigration does not mean you are a racist.
2. There is a problem with Muslim immigration and until we recognise there is a problem, we will not be able to come up with an appropriate solution.
3. Also, until we recognise there is a problem, we will be pushing more and more people into the hands of right wing populists.

If you're concerned about Muslim immigration separately and apart from immigration of other peoples and religions, it kind of does mean you're a bit racist.  You're specifically judging immigrants based on their ethnic background or religious belief.

[Valmy]

I think the details are pretty much always something of a surprise. Where they are coming from, where they are going, what they want, etc., etc.

Also, the "plan" when there isn't a crisis always amounts to "Avoid the crisis!" because actually admitting that you would contemplate taking in hundreds of thousands or millions of refuges absent a crisis is almost certainly a political non-starter.

Well I disagree. When there are no actual refugees is the only time it is a political starter. What? I somebody going to be all 'the government preparing to be ready in a crisis? OUTRAGE!'

[Valmy]

If you're concerned about Muslim immigration separately and apart from immigration of other peoples and religions, it kind of does mean you're a bit racist.  You're specifically judging immigrants based on their ethnic background or religious belief.

Asking people to not judge others based on what they believe sounds pretty unreasonable.