Gay Marriage Upheld by USSC in Close Ruling

[crazy canuck]

There is a very good public policy argument to make that incestual relationships have significant power imbalances.

But we have this discussion all the time. Why only in this instance do we suddenly care about power imbalances? There are lots of power imbalances inherent in many to most relationships and we don't prohibit those.

Yes, and I never quite understand this argument whenever it is raised.  The law does address lots of other power imbalances as well.

Way I think of it is this: for incest, by far the more common examples of it are exploitive in a bad way. It is possible for it to be non-exploitive, but that usually requires some really convoluted fact situation (say a brother and a sister were seperated at birth and ...  that sort of thing). Like statutory rape, it's a case where the presumption of exploitation is pretty strong, but obviously there are always going to be exceptions. The issue is whether public policy favours a hard and fast rule, or would allow a court leeway to make those exceptions - I'm usually in favour of allowing courts discretion in cases like this.

To me the issue at hand is the exploitation, not the relationship on its own. I suppose it is easier to spot the relationship than watch for exploitation...

Yeah, I think it is that exactly.  Certain relationships are more likely to be exploitative.  Hence laws regarding stat rape and incest.

[crazy canuck]

Where there is knowledge of the relationship I don't know how one avoids the power imbalance/exploitation problem.

I'd question the same on much of Western history where the man was the breadwinner, property owern, man of his castle, etc.

Sure, but there is also social utility in having marriages.  That is where Marti's argument breaks down.  There is no good argument for differentiating marriage between adults (which is widely held to be a social good) on the basis of gender. But there are good policy reasons to continue to prohibit incest and polygamy.  Legalizing one does not lead to legalizing the others.

[Martinus]

CC, are you sure that the majority decision is based on social utility? I thought it was not a primary reason. In fact, reduced social utility of gay marriage was one of the primary arguments used by its opponents. I am not sure it was debunked as much as it was declared irrelevant.

[Martinus]

Yeah, I think it is that exactly.  Certain relationships are more likely to be exploitative.  Hence laws regarding stat rape and incest.

Err, statutory rape laws are not there because a relationship is "likely to be exploitative" - it's because there is a consensus that a minor cannot give an informed consent, period.

And I think laws against incest are also not primarily based on "likelihood of exploitation" either - it seems to me this is an argument coined hastily by opponents of legalising incest after they began to realise that the other arguments that have been used throughout centuries (it is unnatural and it leads to genetic defects) are no longer sustainable.

[Martinus]

By the way, what happened to "crop that fucking quote" movement on Languish? It used to be considered good form that people would crop the quote if there were more than 3 past quotes - now it goes up to 5 or 6 and noone says anything. 

[Tonitrus]

Ugh, didn't we already have a massive incest legalization megathread-trainwreck? 

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, I think it is that exactly.  Certain relationships are more likely to be exploitative.  Hence laws regarding stat rape and incest.

Err, statutory rape laws are not there because a relationship is "likely to be exploitative" - it's because there is a consensus that a minor cannot give an informed consent, period.

And I think laws against incest are also not primarily based on "likelihood of exploitation" either - it seems to me this is an argument coined hastily by opponents of legalising incest after they began to realise that the other arguments that have been used throughout centuries (it is unnatural and it leads to genetic defects) are no longer sustainable.

Marti, why do you think there are laws regarding the age at which consent can be given? 

Regarding your second point.  Are you really going to try to argue that the concern over exploitation in an incestuous relationship isn't valid?

I think I will take Tonitrus' sage advice here and tap out.

[Caliga]

At least two county clerks in Kentucky are refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. 

FYI these two counties are in hick parts of the state and nowhere near me.  The county clerks in the counties I live and work in are complying with the law.

[Monoriu]

At least two county clerks in Kentucky are refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. 

FYI these two counties are in hick parts of the state and nowhere near me.  The county clerks in the counties I live and work in are complying with the law.

Civil servants must comply 

[Caliga]

Correct.  I watched one video and the fucking redneck clerk was like "IT'S A VIERLATION OF MAH BELIEFS TEW HAVE TEW COMPLAH WITH THIS RULIN"

He then went on to misquote Bible verse.  Repeatedly. 

[Admiral Yi]

What and how did he misquote?

[Monoriu]

Correct.  I watched one video and the fucking redneck clerk was like "IT'S A VIERLATION OF MAH BELIEFS TEW HAVE TEW COMPLAH WITH THIS RULIN"

He then went on to misquote Bible verse.  Repeatedly. 

He wants to act on his personal beliefs, he joins whatever church he wants to join and takes another job as a priest or something.  I hope he is fired on the spot. 

[Caliga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUIJXh7EO-4

[Valmy]

There was one county in Texas that was talking big about refusing and then some gay couple recently went to get their license and they caved like a bunch of responsible law abiding bitches. It was Hood County I think. Their holdout was as successful as their namesake's tenure as commander of the Army of Tennessee.

[viper37]

He wants to act on his personal beliefs, he joins whatever church he wants to join and takes another job as a priest or something.  I hope he is fired on the spot. 

this is an anglo-saxon country we're talking about.  You can run for President on such a platform.