The Off Topic Topic

[Admiral Yi]

But what's the point if you don't take the existing world as a starting point?  There's lots of things I'd support or oppose in an abstract world that I don't in the real world. Surely that's more meaningless?

I took Jake to be saying he's not ideologically wed to any specific type of taxes, if the state's paid and the social differences aren't exacerbated.  In the practical example of inheritance tax that's been done.  In your example of a flat tax it's difficult to see how practically that could be done. 

So I don't know about Jake, but I'm not ideologically opposed to either - in a pure theoretical world - but in practice one's possible and the other's not.

I don't understand your distinction between an abstract world and a real world.  If we were to pass a flat tax then that would be the real world.  In Russia a flat tax is the real world.

[Sheilbh]

I don't understand your distinction between an abstract world and a real world.  If we were to pass a flat tax then that would be the real world.  In Russia a flat tax is the real world.

Yeah and I said there could be scenarios, especially in the countries that have gone for it, where a flat tax wouldn't be exacerbating social differences and would be able to pay for the state.  That wouldn't be the case anywhere in the West. 

If you were to pass a flat tax that would be revenue neutral then it would either be massive transfer of the tax burden from lower and middle incomes to the wealthy or it would have to be so high that it wouldn't be creating the incentives that are the supposed advantage of a flat tax.

There's two ways of doing a flat tax.  One is the Russians which is low and there's a low personal allowance - if anywhere in the West followed that model they'd be institutionalising inequality.  The other is the Baltic model which has a high personal allowance and a pretty high flat tax rate (I think 33% in Latvia) that means the shift of the tax burden from the wealthy to the poor's avoided but to pay for a Western state it would have to be very high indeed.  I think a study in the EU projected that the flat tax would have to be 45% in Germany, for example, to both pay for the state and not cause a serious shift in inequality.

Edit:  And by talk of flat tax I'm ignoring social security and payroll taxes.  For example Russia has quite a high payroll tax which can also be problematic in some societies because it punishes certain kinds of income - generally that earned by the poor and the middle income workers - while being beneficial for the well-off.

[Admiral Yi]

Okey dokey Shelf.  I interpreted Yakie's comment to mean he would support any tax regime that did not exacerbate inequality in absolute terms, and was surprised by that.  You interpreted it to mean a tax regime that does not exacerbate inequality relative to the existing regime, which would not be very surprising.  So there we are.

[Ideologue]

Abolished by the Social Democrats

I would have figured you for an inheritance tax supporter.

Why?

Because [Sheilbh is] a pinko.

Dude's been dancing to the center-right for like a year now.

S, change your avatar to color plz.

[Ideologue]

I would have figured you for an inheritance tax supporter.

Why?

I'm not strong either way.  I think way, way too many people are caught by it in the UK right now.  It also seems to be one of those taxes which is more about making a statement and punishing the rich rather than actually improving social mobility or paying for the state.  In other words the sort of taxes American lefties love.

And I saw that.

[DGuller]

Wouldn't a flat tax exacerbate social differences?

It would be neutral.  A person who had five times the income of another would still have five times the income after a flat tax was implemented.

This is frankly an enormously terrible argument.  It completely ignores the role of accumulated savings, and the fact that savings don't scale with income.  Due to the leveraging effect of life necessities on the savings rate, a flat tax would lead to a situation where wealth gravitates towards wealth;  that's not exactly the situation that doesn't exacerbate social differences.

[Admiral Yi]

This is frankly an enormously terrible argument.  It completely ignores the role of accumulated savings, and the fact that savings don't scale with income.  Due to the leveraging effect of life necessities on the savings rate, a flat tax would lead to a situation where wealth gravitates towards wealth;  that's not exactly the situation that doesn't exacerbate social differences.

If we're going to follow this logic the only tax system that quote unquote doesn't exacerbate societal differences is one that leaves every person the exact same amount of after tax income.

[Tamas]

Inheritance tax is evil

Flat tax is the only fair tax. "wealth gravitates toward wealth" You actually mean that it is easier to invest and save if you have money left after your costs of living?!!!! And that the more money you have left after costs, the more money you can invest or save?!!! THE HUMANITY!!!! This cannot remain as such!!!!

If we are not careful at rooting this abomination out, people will be able to start new businesses and create jobs themselves, instead of relying on loans made out of make-believe money.

[The Brain]

Only retarded countries have inheritance tax.

[DGuller]

This is frankly an enormously terrible argument.  It completely ignores the role of accumulated savings, and the fact that savings don't scale with income.  Due to the leveraging effect of life necessities on the savings rate, a flat tax would lead to a situation where wealth gravitates towards wealth;  that's not exactly the situation that doesn't exacerbate social differences.

If we're going to follow this logic the only tax system that quote unquote doesn't exacerbate societal differences is one that leaves every person the exact same amount of after tax income.

Ok, so I guess we then just have to pretend this consideration doesn't exist, even though it is by far the most pertinent to the question at hand.

[Josquius]

Inheritance tax is evil

Flat tax is the only fair tax. "wealth gravitates toward wealth" You actually mean that it is easier to invest and save if you have money left after your costs of living?!!!! And that the more money you have left after costs, the more money you can invest or save?!!! THE HUMANITY!!!! This cannot remain as such!!!!

If we are not careful at rooting this abomination out, people will be able to start new businesses and create jobs themselves, instead of relying on loans made out of make-believe money.

Because that is totally what rich people usually do with their money....


I know very little of taxes but from what I gather this flat tax stuff seems absolutely silly.

[Tamas]

Inheritance tax is evil

Flat tax is the only fair tax. "wealth gravitates toward wealth" You actually mean that it is easier to invest and save if you have money left after your costs of living?!!!! And that the more money you have left after costs, the more money you can invest or save?!!! THE HUMANITY!!!! This cannot remain as such!!!!

If we are not careful at rooting this abomination out, people will be able to start new businesses and create jobs themselves, instead of relying on loans made out of make-believe money.

Because that is totally what rich people usually do with their money....


I know very little of taxes but from what I gather this flat tax stuff seems absolutely silly.

Ok, so let's say they consume it. Which they don't, not all, at least, evidenced by the fact that we have factories, buildings, and the like. Does that spending entail flushing it down a vacuum? One man's spending is an other man's income.

And what is silly about a flat tax? You know what is silly? Punishing success is.

[Josquius]

Ok, so let's say they consume it. Which they don't, not all, at least, evidenced by the fact that we have factories, buildings, and the like. Does that spending entail flushing it down a vacuum? One man's spending is an other man's income.

And what is silly about a flat tax? You know what is silly? Punishing success is.

Consumption helps the poor and the country at large. It far more helps the rich to get richer however.

Taxing the rich isn't punishing success . They still remain a lot richer than the poor. There is the odd silly occasion where it is better to be slightly poorer because of stupidity in the system but such circumstances are rare and only really relevant to the poor. You're never going to get someone who decides against working hard and getting rich because it means he'll have to pay a higher tax percentage on his bagillion dollars than he would on his minimum wage job.

[Ideologue]

Inheritance tax is evil

Flat tax is the only fair tax. "wealth gravitates toward wealth" You actually mean that it is easier to invest and save if you have money left after your costs of living?!!!! And that the more money you have left after costs, the more money you can invest or save?!!! THE HUMANITY!!!! This cannot remain as such!!!!

If we are not careful at rooting this abomination out, people will be able to start new businesses and create jobs themselves, instead of relying on loans made out of make-believe money.

Because that is totally what rich people usually do with their money....


I know very little of taxes but from what I gather this flat tax stuff seems absolutely silly.

Ok, so let's say they consume it. Which they don't, not all, at least, evidenced by the fact that we have factories, buildings, and the like. Does that spending entail flushing it down a vacuum? One man's spending is an other man's income.

One man's tax is another man's income, often spend on infrastructural projects no private actor could afford to invest in.  Try again.

[Josquius]

To get back on topic...
I had a weird encounter today.
Ran into a friend outside the station and stopped to talk. Whilst we were talking an old Japanese guy on a bike stopped next to us and started saying....strange things. In good English.
All.... humans but same face. Because God made us. God likes peace, not war. Muhammed is a false prophet. Not a propehet. He had 12 wives. He loves.
He never stopped around for my counter-arguments about old testament god...Just...went on his way.
Weird drive by philosophy.