9 dead in motorcyle gang gunfight at Texas restaurant

[MadBurgerMaker]

a sleigh and a Santa cow with a sign, "Have a Moo-ry Christmas,"

[Razgovory]

This guy shot and killed two guys burglarizing his neighbors house.  He was not indicted.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us/13texas.html?_r=0

Correction:  He shot two guys who ran through his property after they had burglarized his neighbor's house.  This was the castle doctrine in effect, not Stand Your Ground. 

If a Texas redneck with a gun says "Move and you're dead" while you're on his property, he probably means it.  Alas, these these two fine upstanding men did not heed the warning and we lost them

btw how is the bolded part relevant to the story? 

Moments later, after what the police say was a confrontation on Mr. Horn's front lawn, the two men — both illegal immigrants — lay dead on winding Timberline Drive, leaving behind a pillowcase stuffed with jewelry and about $2,000 in cash.

One of them, identified by the police as Hernando Torres, a k a Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, was found across the street beside a sleigh and a Santa cow with a sign, "Have a Moo-ry Christmas," at the house of a Pasadena police officer.

Actually he called 9-11 while they were breaking into the neighbors place and simply said he was going to kill them, as was his right by the new law.

The Pasadena emergency operator responded: "Nope. Don't do that. Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, O.K.?"

Mr. Horn said: "But hurry up, man. Catch these guys will you? Cause, I ain't going to let them go."

Mr. Horn then said he would get his shotgun.

The operator said, "No, no." But Mr. Horn said: "I can't take a chance of getting killed over this, O.K.? I'm going to shoot."

The operator told him not to go out with a gun because officers would be arriving.

"O.K.," Mr. Horn said. "But I have a right to protect myself too, sir," adding, "The laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it."

The operator said, "You're going to get yourself shot." But Mr. Horn replied, "You want to make a bet? I'm going to kill them."

Moments later he said, "Well here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

After words he claimed they entered the front lawn, but since neither body was on his property that seems questionable.  That sounds a lot like a man who is planning to kill two people.

[Razgovory]

They look at each of them individually.  I think they have to see if some or parts of their story allow them to claim self defense/whatever you're claiming.  Crazy shotgun guy got off because he was defending property, or some shit like that.  I think he shot at least one of those dudes in his front yard or something (and another one down the street).  I don't know anything at all about Florida's law, but there's a robbery involved again and apparently dude swung a bag of radios at a guy who was chasing him with a knife?  What a stupid situation.   

Either way, what is your point?  Offing someone in a parking lot who isn't doing anything other than responding to you talking shit is a different deal from crazy old guy blasting two guys who robbed a place and whatever that was in Florida after another robbery. 

I still have no idea why these things are coming up in a thread about the Bandidos apparently ambushing another biker gang and the cops shooting a few on the side.

That reasonable fear of your life can be stretched to absurd situations where you can chase a man down with a knife and stab him to death, and a man can say state to a third party that he simply going to kill two people and get away with it.

[derspiess]

After words he claimed they entered the front lawn, but since neither body was on his property that seems questionable. 

You can argue the particulars all you like (police seemed to agree that both were on his lawn at some point), but this was a case involving Castle Doctrine, not Stand Your Ground. 

That sounds a lot like a man who is planning to kill two people.

Yep.  But they'd probably be alive had they not decided to cut through his yard.

[grumbler]

Berkut, I'd advise letting this one go.  MBM sounds like he is about to go into "you motherfucker!" mode, and that will only end in tears.

Just because I think YOU are a huge douchebag doesn't mean I apply that to everyone.  Just you.  Because you're a douchebag.

Told you, Berkut. 

[Berkut]

After words he claimed they entered the front lawn, but since neither body was on his property that seems questionable. 

You can argue the particulars all you like (police seemed to agree that both were on his lawn at some point), but this was a case involving Castle Doctrine, not Stand Your Ground. 

That sounds a lot like a man who is planning to kill two people.

Yep.  But they'd probably be alive had they not decided to cut through his yard.

This is why the sane people find the gun nuts so, well, nutty.

You are actually trying to excuse or mitigate some fellow gun freak murdering two people in cold blood. But hey, he is a fellow gun freak, so we have to pretend like this has something to do with something other than someone deciding they want to shoot a couple people.

When those who seem otherwise sane make excuses for shit like this, it makes the non-gun fanatics wonder just how far the seemingly sane are from those who actually are so entranced by their guns that they will use the excuse of someone on their lawn to get the chance to actually shoot someone.

It is pretty much like seeing some supposedly "normal" Muslim say "Yeah, those women should not have been lined up and shot like that - that is clearly wrong. However, if they had just worn their veils like they should have..."

[Admiral Yi]

Goddamn gun nuts.  They should all be married then killed.

[grumbler]

Here's on for you, Berkut, in which a judge pretty much bemoans your scenario as following the law:

"In 2010, a Florida circuit judge ruled that the law insulated two defendants faced with murder charges in the case of a man who was shot to death with an AK-47.   The incident involved a running street battle between affiliates of rival gangs. "What this means, as illustrated by this case, is that two individuals, or even groups, can square off in the middle of a public street, exchange gunfire, and both be absolved of criminal liability if they were reasonably acting in self defense," the judge wrote.  "It is very much like the wild West."

The Last Gun  By Tom Diaz p.  133 (any typos are mine)

[derspiess]

  Okay, Berkut.  I was just saying those two shitbags made a fatal error in running through the Texas redneck's lawn.  That's all.

[grumbler]

Yep.  But they'd probably be alive had they not decided to cut through his yard.

I doubt that.  he said he was going to kill them, and that was that.  We don't even know if they did cut across his yard. All we know is that he set out to kill them before they had gone anywhere, that he did kill them, and that he claimed that they had entered his property even though neither was actually on his property when they died.

Of course, this was Texas, and they were Hispanic.  I suppose we should be grateful he didn't get awarded a position in the Texas Guard for taking care of the problem of people who were committing the crime of Breathing While Hispanic.

[derspiess]

Texans generally seem to get along with Hispandexes pretty well.  Dude was pissed that people were burglarizing his next door neighbor's home and bringing crime into his neighborhood and for that I don't blame him.  Morally I don't think shooting them was the right thing to do, but I don't think he shot them because of their Hispandexitude.

[Berkut]

I think he shot them because he had guns and was terribly excited at the chance to actually get to use them.

When I see people turn around and say things that sound a lot like making an excuse for him, it makes me wonder if a lot more of them are just itching for a reason to exercise their rights to kill another human being with their shiny toys.

[Berkut]

  Okay, Berkut.  I was just saying those two shitbags made a fatal error in running through the Texas redneck's lawn.  That's all.

Yes, I am sure that is the important lesson to take from that story.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Berkut, I'd advise letting this one go.  MBM sounds like he is about to go into "you motherfucker!" mode, and that will only end in tears.

Just because I think YOU are a huge douchebag doesn't mean I apply that to everyone.  Just you.  Because you're a douchebag.

Told you, Berkut. 

  "See bro!  This thing that I said might happen didn't happen!  I told you so!" You're such a tool. 

Hey how about you go back to the thread where you were talking about landing and hangaring F-14 sized combat drones on a destroyer in the next 15 years.

[derspiess]

I think he shot them because he had guns and was terribly excited at the chance to actually get to use them.

Okay, well you tend to believe what you want to believe.  Especially if it fits a certain narrative you're trying to sell.

When I see people turn around and say things that sound a lot like making an excuse for him, it makes me wonder if a lot more of them are just itching for a reason to exercise their rights to kill another human being with their shiny toys.

Man, it's like you're in our minds