Dutch Muslim Students Resist Holocaust Education

[Admiral Yi]

Exactly the problem.
"Jews hold too much power in business"- the only sensible way to jnterprate it is some Jews. Which is true and pretty uncontroversial. There are quite a few Jewish 1%ers.
Yet here they're taking someone shrugging and going "errr I guess" to this question as being a raging anti Semite who believes in the old tales of Jews all working together to dominate business on all levels.

So presumably a poll of sensible people would result in 100% yes answers to this question.

[grumbler]

Exactly the problem.
"Jews hold too much power in business"- the only sensible way to jnterprate it is some Jews. Which is true and pretty uncontroversial. There are quite a few Jewish 1%ers.
Yet here they're taking someone shrugging and going "errr I guess" to this question as being a raging anti Semite who believes in the old tales of Jews all working together to dominate business on all levels.

So presumably a poll of sensible people would result in 100% yes answers to this question.

Tyr-sensible people, or human-sensible people?  Two mutually exclusive groups.

[grumbler]

Oh, and I'd be real careful using ADL stats on antisemitism, given that they have a vested interest in finding antisemitism wherever it could even implausibly be found.  It's their raison d'etre.  It's like believing Al Sharpton stats on racism, or CC on the value of novels as historical evidence.

[Norgy]

I doubt there's any denying anti-semitism on the whole is rising in Europe.

And it's not just based on Muslim immigration.

It's a sad development. One we should try to resist. But the anti-Israel crowd often draw pure anti-semitists to itself.
On a side note, it'd be nice to acknowledge Muslims are faced with widescale discrimination here as well.

[Valmy]

On a side note, it'd be nice to acknowledge Muslims are faced with widescale discrimination here as well.

Yeah but I hope that is different. That it is because of their immigrant status and it will fade in time. We will see.

[The Brain]

I'm sure people will start liking Muslims when Muslims stop killing people over cartoons.

[Valmy]

I'm sure people will start liking Muslims when Muslims stop killing people over cartoons.

Sure today it is terrifying but once you get used to the Muslims it will just be a charming affectation.

[Razgovory]

Oh, and I'd be real careful using ADL stats on antisemitism, given that they have a vested interest in finding antisemitism wherever it could even implausibly be found.  It's their raison d'etre.  It's like believing Al Sharpton stats on racism, or CC on the value of novels as historical evidence.

  I guess I'll put you down for "Jews talk about the Holocaust to much".

[Razgovory]

I'm sure people will start liking Muslims when Muslims stop killing people over cartoons.

Signs point to no.

[Sheilbh]

I'm surprised people let Raz troll them so well. 

You don't get off the hook on antisemitism now that you have Muslims hanging around.

Yeah. The line from the Jeffrey Goldberg piece in the Atlantic sticks with me, of how many words European anti-semitism has pushed into our languages: ghetto, inquisition, auto-da-fe, blood libel, pogrom, Holocaust.

I don't think we can just shrug our shoulders and point to an already unpopular minority for being the cause of anti-semitism in Europe - the worst polled country, after all, is Greece.

While it's absolutely true most anti-semitic attacks are by Muslim Europeans, again as Goldberg pointed out, it is striking that they're using the language neo-Nazis probably used to abuse their parents: 'heil Hitler' not 'Allahu akbar'. And I find it fascinating that in all of the varied slanders and hates spewed from the Muslim world towards the Jews over the last century there's still no better seller than the Protocols.

Similarly the impression I got from reading The French Intifada was that the anti-semitism in France now was a fusion of two pre-existing strands, one that was a sort of naive Muslim anti-semitism (I'm reminded of Shoah when the Polish woman says the Jews smelled and he presses why did the Jews smell, she replied 'because they worked in the tanneries') with the rather more sophisticated and murderous anti-semitism of Europe - in this case Vichy.

This isn't European anti-semitism but we're implicated and attacks are happening again where they rhyme.

No, that poll is clearly along the same lines as that news article from a few months back about there being a lot of anti semitism in the uk.... Which on further investigation proved to be made by an organization whose job it was to fight anti semitism and used stupid methodology.

Last year there was a record number of anti-semitic attacks on Jews. A quarter of British Jews have considered leaving because of it and half no longer think there is a future for Jewish life in Britain. This is problem we must deal with.

Those figures should be worrying. Generally life in Britain is safe and generally Britain has probably been the best place in Europe to be a Jew.

They aren't anywhere near as visible as in the US. Most don't even realise or care that our famous Jews are Jewish.

This is the tragedy of it and why the right-wing/French option is wrong.

That's a sad thing that we do not have visible Jewish life in the way the US does. I think there is more fear of living openly as a Jew. Our synagogues are now very often guarded and it is impossible to imagine many performing outdoor services.

The answer that is proposed to the Muslim anti-semitism is self-effacement. That they also cease to live openly as Muslims and stop performing outdoor services. We're saying that they should become like those impeccably German Jewish doctors in the 19th century. Of course the inassimilational quality of Muslims does also echo the old position towards the Jews. I don't think it'll work and I don't think it's right.

We need (and I think I'm seeing it starting in Britain) hyphenisation. We need to become comfortable as nations of minorities. I'm an optimist - about the UK or about London at least - and I think it will happen because there's no alternative. It's just sad what may happen on the way.

It's a sad development. One we should try to resist. But the anti-Israel crowd often draw pure anti-semitists to itself.

Yep. It's depressing beyond measure to see this happen on the left.

[Martinus]

But again Sheilbh you are conflating two things in a classic example of moral equivalency.

Muslim immigrants attacking Jews is one thing - Europeans being antisemitic is another. No matter how you slice it, physical violence vs. holding prejudiced and silly views are two completely different things.

People hold prejudiced, stupid views about a lot of groups of people - these prejudices can be based on ethnicity, religion (or lack thereof), gender, sexuality, nationality, profession and so on and so forth. You can educate people about this but such prejudices do and will exist and can never be fully eradicated - it's just the natural of human mind that it tends to divide people into us vs. them and judge people accordingly. But in most cases this prejudice does not lead to violence.

So yeah, the bottom line is this - racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other form of prejudice exist in both Europe and America. But right now only some of these lead to violence and deaths - namely, Muslim anti-Jewish and anti-gay violence in Europe and anti-black violence (often perpetrated by agents of the state) in America. These are the problems that require immediate attention before we start getting into "soft" prejudice.

[The Brain]

People can hold whatever retarded ideas they want. Anti-semitism, Catholicism, Islam, Communism... As long as they don't hurt other people I kind of don't give a fuck.

You don't have a right not to be hated.

[Martinus]

People can hold whatever retarded ideas they want. Anti-semitism, Catholicism, Islam, Communism... As long as they don't hurt other people I kind of don't give a fuck.

You don't have a right not to be hated.

Yup. But some people (especially certain portions of the left - but also some religious right) seem to conflate prejudice with violence.

[PDH]

It is a good thing that the nice white European antisemitism cannot lead to violence against jews.

[Sheilbh]

Muslim immigrants attacking Jews is one thing - Europeans being antisemitic is another. No matter how you slice it, physical violence vs. holding prejudiced and silly views are two completely different things.

I don't think they are completely different things, though I'm not conflating the two. Both need to be ended.

I think European anti-semitism is of a different type than it has been historically. However I also think that European anti-semitism has informed and strengthened the bigotry of Muslim bigots. I think Europe has been, for the last thousand years, the ground zero of hating Jews and has to a large extent created modern anti-semitism. That they're a 'separate nation' with different loyalties, their control of the media, their control of high finance, their control of Communism, the blood libel all of these and many more are uniquely European contributions anti-semitism.  I think it's become a toxic fusion in many Muslim-European communities (many of these crimes are committed by young people born here - they are European) of Muslim anti-semitism with our own insufficiently expurgated historical tradition.

I also think the more peaceable bigotries of white Europeans is what leads to a higher than normal tolerance of anti-semitism and a lack of urgency in dealing with it. We disguise it by thinking it's about Israel but I struggle to see what about Israel could ever lead to tolerance of attacks on Jews in Europe.

So yeah, the bottom line is this - racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other form of prejudice exist in both Europe and America. But right now only some of these lead to violence and deaths - namely, Muslim anti-Jewish and anti-gay violence in Europe and anti-black violence (often perpetrated by agents of the state) in America. These are the problems that require immediate attention before we start getting into "soft" prejudice.

On the anti-gay front I wouldn't associate the violence with Muslims. The only recent, prominent gay-bashings that I can think of weren't religiously motivated. But they were informed by 'soft' prejudice which I do think we need to take on. I think we need to move beyond tolerance of each other's foibles however much we dislike them as people to acceptance. And I do find the fact that European synagogues often need guards incredibly depressing because it's happened and because it's not caused an outrage by the majority that's partly why I think the problem goes far beyond Muslim youths.