RIP Lee Kwan Yew

[Gups]

I've even watched Gandhi twice.

Woah!

I rooted for the British.

I was torn.

[Valmy]

[Ed Anger]

I laughed.

[Queequeg]

I'd much rather live in a society with property rights, rule of law and government monopoly on violence than one with just political liberties, TBH.  It's not even close.  Give me 1870s Prussia/Germany over 1870s Deadwood any day of the week.

I'll take Deadwood. And I see no reason we can't both have what we want.

Well enjoy having your throat slit by Al Swearengen.  I'll be drinking Riesling with Max Weber in Heidelberg.

Germany in 1870 wasn't all that oppressive. Your analogy would make more sense if you used Czarist Russia.

So you think Singapore has more in common with pogrom-happy Russia, that didn't have rule of law or firm property rights or welfare, than with Singapore?

[Razgovory]

So Grumbler has put his foot in his mouth and is now doing a victory lap which must look strange with one foot.

[Camerus]

Another issue with the Singapore model apart from its acceptance of authoritarianism is its tolerance of massive wealth inequality.  This could also be a function of the lack of democracy.

We all know how well American democracy has dealt with that particular problem.

I'd much prefer to being working class in America than working class in Singapore.

[Camerus]

I wouldn't mind living in a "soft" authoritarian state with economic opportunities.... provided I still have my Western passport of course.   

Another issue with the Singapore model apart from its acceptance of authoritarianism is its tolerance of massive wealth inequality.  This could also be a function of the lack of democracy.

I find Singapore's kind of authoritarianism super easy to live with.  I can't chew gum.  Big deal.  Can't criticise the government.  Not going to do that anyway.  Public humiliation for people who litter.  That's good, actually. 

I agree, and that probably could work reasonably well for city-states like Singapore. 

I honestly didn't miss any civil liberties when living in Shenzhen, but then as a foreigner my situation is quite different than the average person's.  The main annoyance was the Great Firewall, but with a VPN it was a piece of cake to access any site anyway.  The relative economic opportunities that I had more than made up for that.  The large communities of ex-pats in tier-one cities like Shenzhen, Shanghai, etc feel largely the same way.

But if the CCP is hoping to one day emulate Singapore's soft authoritarianism, China still has a long way to go in terms of property rights, rule of law etc, and I doubt they will ever get there.  I'm not sure the system could work in any large nation, or in China in particular.

[Capetan Mihali]

It's worth noting that chewing gum is actually kind of unique in how much of a blight it creates on sidewalks.  I read or watched something about the fact that it is virtually impossible to remove from the pavement surface due to the way the gum chemically degrades.  And those gum stains are pretty unsightly when you think about it, though you tend to stop seeing them when you live in a big city.

IIRC, it's now fairly easy to obtain chewing gum at the pharmacy with a dentist's prescription/recommendation.

[Eddie Teach]

Valmy missed it, but it is Marti that is claiming to speak for most straight men.

Well, he does think his cleaning lady is kinda hot. 

I do find it curious that Martinus evidently would be perfectly comfortable living under an autocratic regime as long as they allow him to have sex with other men.

[mongers]

And how the fuck do you know what a typical Indian thinks?

Because I've talked to typical Indians, and to people who work with typical Indians on a daily basis.  I also read more about India than just reviews for the movie Gandhi.

My Dad was Indian, I've spent about 6 months of my live in India. I've even watched Gandhi twice.  Yet, I have no idea what a typical Indian is, let alone what he thinks. I'm hugely impressed that you have managed to develop such insight, just through talking to some ex-pats.

[Monoriu]

I wouldn't mind living in a "soft" authoritarian state with economic opportunities.... provided I still have my Western passport of course.   

Another issue with the Singapore model apart from its acceptance of authoritarianism is its tolerance of massive wealth inequality.  This could also be a function of the lack of democracy.

I find Singapore's kind of authoritarianism super easy to live with.  I can't chew gum.  Big deal.  Can't criticise the government.  Not going to do that anyway.  Public humiliation for people who litter.  That's good, actually. 

I agree, and that probably could work reasonably well for city-states like Singapore. 

I honestly didn't miss any civil liberties when living in Shenzhen, but then as a foreigner my situation is quite different than the average person's.  The main annoyance was the Great Firewall, but with a VPN it was a piece of cake to access any site anyway.  The relative economic opportunities that I had more than made up for that.  The large communities of ex-pats in tier-one cities like Shenzhen, Shanghai, etc feel largely the same way.

But if the CCP is hoping to one day emulate Singapore's soft authoritarianism, China still has a long way to go in terms of property rights, rule of law etc, and I doubt they will ever get there.  I'm not sure the system could work in any large nation, or in China in particular.

A lot of HKers live in mainland apartments that are equipped with servers that allow unrestricted access to the internet.  That Great Firewall isn't designed to block absolutely everything.  Afterall, mainland Chinese are now allowed to travel overseas.  So there really is not much point about preventing the people from finding out what happened in 1989, for example.  Word is going to spread with or without the firewall.  What they are really worried about is the internet being used to organise protests. 

[Camerus]

I wouldn't mind living in a "soft" authoritarian state with economic opportunities.... provided I still have my Western passport of course.   

Another issue with the Singapore model apart from its acceptance of authoritarianism is its tolerance of massive wealth inequality.  This could also be a function of the lack of democracy.

I find Singapore's kind of authoritarianism super easy to live with.  I can't chew gum.  Big deal.  Can't criticise the government.  Not going to do that anyway.  Public humiliation for people who litter.  That's good, actually. 

I agree, and that probably could work reasonably well for city-states like Singapore. 

I honestly didn't miss any civil liberties when living in Shenzhen, but then as a foreigner my situation is quite different than the average person's.  The main annoyance was the Great Firewall, but with a VPN it was a piece of cake to access any site anyway.  The relative economic opportunities that I had more than made up for that.  The large communities of ex-pats in tier-one cities like Shenzhen, Shanghai, etc feel largely the same way.

But if the CCP is hoping to one day emulate Singapore's soft authoritarianism, China still has a long way to go in terms of property rights, rule of law etc, and I doubt they will ever get there.  I'm not sure the system could work in any large nation, or in China in particular.

A lot of HKers live in mainland apartments that are equipped with servers that allow unrestricted access to the internet.  That Great Firewall isn't designed to block absolutely everything.  Afterall, mainland Chinese are now allowed to travel overseas.  So there really is not much point about preventing the people from finding out what happened in 1989, for example.  Word is going to spread with or without the firewall.  What they are really worried about is the internet being used to organise protests.

I agree that is probably their main concern, but of course on a practical level that means that Facebook, Youtube, etc. are all blocked.  Hence, the need for a VPN for those of us not lucky enough to be HKers in special apartments.   

However, I also think it is about more than just blocking sites that could be used to organize protests, and is also mixed with a good deal of information censorship (e.g. periodic blocking of NYT) and also just old fashioned protectionism for Chinese tech companies.

[Monoriu]

I agree that is probably their main concern, but of course on a practical level that means that Facebook, Youtube, etc. are all blocked.  Hence, the need for a VPN for those of us not lucky enough to be HKers in special apartments.   

However, I also think it is about more than just blocking sites that could be used to organize protests, and is also mixed with a good deal of information censorship (e.g. periodic blocking of NYT) and also just old fashioned protectionism for Chinese tech companies.

The thing with the mainland is that many things are arbitrary.  Say, civil servants in HK need to justify everything.  We need to establish rules and principles, justify them, explain them to the public, write papers and seek the endorsement of some authority, then follow the rules.  On the mainland, it is just "the guy in charge" said this and that sites should be blocked, and they are. 

[Camerus]

I agree that is probably their main concern, but of course on a practical level that means that Facebook, Youtube, etc. are all blocked.  Hence, the need for a VPN for those of us not lucky enough to be HKers in special apartments.   

However, I also think it is about more than just blocking sites that could be used to organize protests, and is also mixed with a good deal of information censorship (e.g. periodic blocking of NYT) and also just old fashioned protectionism for Chinese tech companies.

The thing with the mainland is that many things are arbitrary.  Say, civil servants in HK need to justify everything.  We need to establish rules and principles, justify them, explain them to the public, write papers and seek the endorsement of some authority, then follow the rules.  On the mainland, it is just "the guy in charge" said this and that sites should be blocked, and they are.

Yeah, that's a good point as well. 

Re:  arbitrary policies...  When I lived in Nanjing, banking was a nightmare, simply because the "policy" on money transfer and exchange could be totally different on any given day depending on who was working at the bank that day.  Some days, it was "forbidden" for foreigners to exchange or transfer money, other days, you were entitled to transfer or exchange a significant amount of money, and sometimes you could only exchange a very small sum.   

Of course, like the Great Firewall, you eventually discovered there were ways around that too.   

[Monoriu]

HK news reports that droves of Singaporeans turn up to pay their final respects to Lee's coffin.  At the peak, people line up for 8 hours in the streets to get into the Parliament building, where the coffin is located.  The lines are so long that the authorities require mourners to keep moving when they finally get within sight of the coffin.