RIP Lee Kwan Yew

[Admiral Yi]

So you were being facetious.

[Camerus]

I wouldn't mind living in a "soft" authoritarian state with economic opportunities.... provided I still have my Western passport of course.   

Another issue with the Singapore model apart from its acceptance of authoritarianism is its tolerance of massive wealth inequality.  This could also be a function of the lack of democracy.

[DGuller]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - B. Franklin. 

I'm not talking about safety, I'm talking about society's functioning.  Ben Franklin and his contemporaries were building on centuries of governance tradition that England developed during its less than fully liberal phase.

[Norgy]

So you were being facetious.

I was being my ordinary assclowny assholy self.

This is what I bring.
Don't expect serious discussion or actual debate from me. I'm just here for the popsicles.

[Camerus]

Mono is right that the Singaporean example - sometimes as a shining exemplar of so-called "Asian values" - is one frequently held up by gradual-reform CCPers as the ultimate goal for China, and that is part of Lee's legacy (for better or for worse).  Of course, whether that model would be viable on the scale of a nation as large as China is another question, and my own view is that it probably wouldn't be.

Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, apparwnrly not Asian enough.

Not attractive options from the perspective of CCP leadership.   

[Ed Anger]

So you were being facetious.

I was being my ordinary assclowny assholy self.

This is what I bring.
Don't expect serious discussion or actual debate from me. I'm just here for the popsicles.

[Monoriu]

I wouldn't mind living in a "soft" authoritarian state with economic opportunities.... provided I still have my Western passport of course.   

Another issue with the Singapore model apart from its acceptance of authoritarianism is its tolerance of massive wealth inequality.  This could also be a function of the lack of democracy.

I find Singapore's kind of authoritarianism super easy to live with.  I can't chew gum.  Big deal.  Can't criticise the government.  Not going to do that anyway.  Public humiliation for people who litter.  That's good, actually. 

As for massive wealth inequality, that happens everywhere in the world, especially in wealthy financial hubs.  They do have welfare institutions in place, the most famous being cheap public housing for like 80-90% of the population. 

[alfred russel]

He took over a small, shitty, poor ass island just off the coast of a much larger and racially hostile neighbor and made it into a well educated first world city with one of the longest life expectancies in the world.

Yeah it sucks that they cane people for littering and it is a challenge to buy gum and they are a one party state. But he probably deserves a bit more credit.

[Monoriu]

He took over a small, shitty, poor ass island just off the coast of a much larger and racially hostile neighbor and made it into a well educated first world city with one of the longest life expectancies in the world.

Yeah it sucks that they cane people for littering and it is a challenge to buy gum and they are a one party state. But he probably deserves a bit more credit.

They don't cane people for littering.  They cane people for vandalism.  For littering, you pay a fine, and you need to clean the streets in front of camera

[Razgovory]

I am not sure the idea that a benevolent dictatorship is a great form of government has ever gone away. The problem is that those are hard to find.

The idea of benevolent dictatorship has been there ever since the time of the first dictatorship.  Sometimes it even happened to come to fruition.  Unfortunately, it's kind of hard to create a system where you can have both a leader that is powerful enough to be a dictator, and institutions that are powerful enough to ensure their benevolence.

IDK, I think it's possible-maybe easier-to establish rule of law and property rights within an authoritarian structure than an undeveloped democratic one.  India and Brazil don't have either despite democracy.  Fukuyama's latest talks a lot about this.

I don't disagree with grumbler's thesis.  Order comes before freedom, in my opinion, both in priority and in timing.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - B. Franklin. 

But are more likely to ultimately have both.

[MadImmortalMan]

I'd much rather live in a society with property rights, rule of law and government monopoly on violence than one with just political liberties, TBH.  It's not even close.  Give me 1870s Prussia/Germany over 1870s Deadwood any day of the week.

I'll take Deadwood. And I see no reason we can't both have what we want.

[DGuller]

He took over a small, shitty, poor ass island just off the coast of a much larger and racially hostile neighbor and made it into a well educated first world city with one of the longest life expectancies in the world.

Yeah it sucks that they cane people for littering and it is a challenge to buy gum and they are a one party state. But he probably deserves a bit more credit.

To be fair, it wasn't that poor.  You could have much worse starts as a nation than being a British trade port in Asia.  You've got both good governance culture and good economic infrastructure to go from.

[alfred russel]

He took over a small, shitty, poor ass island just off the coast of a much larger and racially hostile neighbor and made it into a well educated first world city with one of the longest life expectancies in the world.

Yeah it sucks that they cane people for littering and it is a challenge to buy gum and they are a one party state. But he probably deserves a bit more credit.

To be fair, it wasn't that poor.  You could have much worse starts as a nation than being a British trade port in Asia.  You've got both good governance culture and good economic infrastructure to go from.

Look at the graph zanza posted upthread.

[DGuller]

Look at the graph zanza posted upthread.

I did.  What did I miss?

[Eddie Teach]

Which shows Singapore being richer than Malaysia, China, and India even at the start. Still, impressive growth, no doubt.