RIP Lee Kwan Yew

[Barrister]

I don't know what the capitalized "Democracy" is that you are referring to, here, so can't respond.  Maybe if you explained what you think it required for Democracy we can discuss that.

I meant democracy but capitalized it by mistake. I try not to bring in terms and concepts from outside a discussion is I can help it. My apologies.

Okay.  I misunderstood.  I thought you were bringing in a new idea.

I think I have explained my position on Indian democracy and why I think Singapore is more likely to develop what i consider true democracy (and what true democracy is) about as well as I can.  Feel free to disagree, but hopefully do so on something stronger than BB's "so long as you have a peaceful transition of power you are a democracy."  Russia's a democracy by that standard.

How is Russia a democracy by that standard?

The transition from USSR to Russia was most definitely not peaceful, punctuated by quite a number of tanks.  Putin was then Yeltsin's hand-picked successor.  Medveyev was Putin's hand-picked successor, and of course proceeded to hand the Presidency back to Putin.

A peaceful transition of power is not a transition within the same ruling party or structure - if that was all it took then even the PRC would be a successful democracy.  Instead it is the peaceful transition between opposing parties or groups that makes one a successful democracy.

It's a rough measuring stick, but a fairly useful one IMO.  It allows you to weed out countries with democratic facades such as Russia, or even Singapore, with flawed but functioning democracies.

There is at least one country that my suggested rule would mark as not a democracy, but other indications would say it is - South Africa.

I would disagree with your assertion that a democracy requires an educated and informed electorate.  Not that an educated and informed electorate is not very helpful - it is.  But by making it a requirement, you make democracy a measuring stick for social development, and not something independent.

[DGuller]

I am not sure the idea that a benevolent dictatorship is a great form of government has ever gone away. The problem is that those are hard to find.

The idea of benevolent dictatorship has been there ever since the time of the first dictatorship.  Sometimes it even happened to come to fruition.  Unfortunately, it's kind of hard to create a system where you can have both a leader that is powerful enough to be a dictator, and institutions that are powerful enough to ensure their benevolence.

[Zanza]

There is at least one country that my suggested rule would mark as not a democracy, but other indications would say it is - South Africa.

Bavaria has been ruled by the same party for 58 years now and there is no end in sight. Yet no one doubts that Bavaria is a working liberal democracy.

[Syt]

There is at least one country that my suggested rule would mark as not a democracy, but other indications would say it is - South Africa.

Bavaria has been ruled by the same party for 58 years now and there is no end in sight. Yet no one doubts that Bavaria is a working liberal democracy.

[Barrister]

There is at least one country that my suggested rule would mark as not a democracy, but other indications would say it is - South Africa.

Bavaria has been ruled by the same party for 58 years now and there is no end in sight. Yet no one doubts that Bavaria is a working liberal democracy.

And Alberta has been ruled by the same party for 44 years.

Still think "has there been a peaceful transition of power" is a useful measuring stick.

[Norgy]

Beeb has issues with the ANC? Tell me it ain't so. That a white conservative possibly could be against darkies ruling themselves.

[Zanza]

[Admiral Yi]

Beeb has issues with the ANC? Tell me it ain't so. That a white conservative possibly could be against darkies ruling themselves.

The real problem lies with people who don't have an issue with the ANC.

[Queequeg]

I am not sure the idea that a benevolent dictatorship is a great form of government has ever gone away. The problem is that those are hard to find.

The idea of benevolent dictatorship has been there ever since the time of the first dictatorship.  Sometimes it even happened to come to fruition.  Unfortunately, it's kind of hard to create a system where you can have both a leader that is powerful enough to be a dictator, and institutions that are powerful enough to ensure their benevolence.

IDK, I think it's possible-maybe easier-to establish rule of law and property rights within an authoritarian structure than an undeveloped democratic one.  India and Brazil don't have either despite democracy.  Fukuyama's latest talks a lot about this. 

[Queequeg]

I'd much rather live in a society with property rights, rule of law and government monopoly on violence than one with just political liberties, TBH.  It's not even close.  Give me 1870s Prussia/Germany over 1870s Deadwood any day of the week. 

[jimmy olsen]

Mono is right that the Singaporean example - sometimes as a shining exemplar of so-called "Asian values" - is one frequently held up by gradual-reform CCPers as the ultimate goal for China, and that is part of Lee's legacy (for better or for worse).  Of course, whether that model would be viable on the scale of a nation as large as China is another question, and my own view is that it probably wouldn't be.

Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, apparently not Asian enough.

[DGuller]

I am not sure the idea that a benevolent dictatorship is a great form of government has ever gone away. The problem is that those are hard to find.

The idea of benevolent dictatorship has been there ever since the time of the first dictatorship.  Sometimes it even happened to come to fruition.  Unfortunately, it's kind of hard to create a system where you can have both a leader that is powerful enough to be a dictator, and institutions that are powerful enough to ensure their benevolence.

IDK, I think it's possible-maybe easier-to establish rule of law and property rights within an authoritarian structure than an undeveloped democratic one.  India and Brazil don't have either despite democracy.  Fukuyama's latest talks a lot about this.

I don't disagree with grumbler's thesis.  Order comes before freedom, in my opinion, both in priority and in timing.

[Sheilbh]

Between your love for the Catholic Church, sympathy for Mike Huckabee and this, your politics is frequently very bizarre.

I don't think any of those things - to the extent they exist - mean anything about my politics. I don't only like, or try to understand or empathise with things or people I already agree with. That's easy and boring.

Did you lack a strong father figure in your upbringing or something, as you seem to yearn for a paternalistic authoritarianism.

Erm, no and no

[Malthus]

I am not sure the idea that a benevolent dictatorship is a great form of government has ever gone away. The problem is that those are hard to find.

The idea of benevolent dictatorship has been there ever since the time of the first dictatorship.  Sometimes it even happened to come to fruition.  Unfortunately, it's kind of hard to create a system where you can have both a leader that is powerful enough to be a dictator, and institutions that are powerful enough to ensure their benevolence.

IDK, I think it's possible-maybe easier-to establish rule of law and property rights within an authoritarian structure than an undeveloped democratic one.  India and Brazil don't have either despite democracy.  Fukuyama's latest talks a lot about this.

I don't disagree with grumbler's thesis.  Order comes before freedom, in my opinion, both in priority and in timing.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - B. Franklin. 

[Norgy]

Beeb has issues with the ANC? Tell me it ain't so. That a white conservative possibly could be against darkies ruling themselves.

The real problem lies with people who don't have an issue with the ANC.

I do, and I would like to see someone else in charge in SA. The ANC was a liberation movement. Like so many other liberation movements, it's turned to an oligarchy.