The Labor Pains Megathread

[Sheilbh]

I don't think your figure includes all the restaurants that serve booze.

No it wouldn't. Though it would include gastropubs. My parent's village pub for example makes 90% of its money from selling really good food. Without that they'd go under, which makes sense as you can't really sustain a pub anymore on a village of 500 (though the village used to have two), so you need to attract people in and if they're having to drive to get to you then they won't be drinking. So good country cooking is a saviour for many village pubs while keeping a bar for the locals - who provide very welcome atmosphere

What the hell!? That's still more than the entire United States! 

To Americans, we're a nation of functioning alcoholics. To Brits, America's a nation of puritans.

[Admiral Yi]

Why must they?: they are now competing with people that will, thus to keep up, they must go what the in-demand employees will.  (Honestly, I can't believe you're asking this question.)

What do you mean by "keep up."  As in, keep up with the Joneses?

The other part isn't rigorous, but if the labor supply grows, the extra money is unlikely to exceed whatever the hourly rate is: certainly this is the case at where I work, where they realized that people could be bullied into working extra hours and didn't need to be positively incentivized.

*How* will the labor supply increase?  Does working evenings cause people to spontaneously clone?

If the wages offered are lower than the natural wage floor, as for example occurred at Auschwitz, laborers die.  You won't work for wages that won't keep you fed, or at least not for very long.  This was offered as a rhetorical flourish.

Flourish away.

[Tonitrus]

This is getting way too far onto a topic. 

[Admiral Yi]

Presumably when you talk about making choices to better their position you are using the libertarian principle of non-coercion.  Otherwise you would be allowing people to commit murder or theft.  Am I correct in making this assumption?

Correct.  Blackmail, torture, etc., all included.

[jimmy olsen]

This is getting way too far onto a topic. 

I messaged CountdeMoney and he said he'd snip this out into its own thread

[Sheilbh]

Can we keep the pubs?

[LaCroix]

All western countries have hours of work legislation that limit the number of hours an employer can make an employee work without paying overtime as well as absolute limits on hours of work that cannot be worked even with the payment of overtime.

as mentioned, this doesn't involve time of day. when a person works doesn't infringe on his life. some people are more than content with working night shifts their entire life, for example. people don't need a specific day or specific time for rest because that's too subjective (not to mention infeasible). some people like working in the late afternoon/night while some prefer morning/early afternoon. there's enough variety that time slots are filled. someone may occasionally be scheduled on a day or time that doesn't fit their plans/preference, but that's not slavery. i think impoverished indentured servants in the third world would take offense to the comparison.

[Ideologue]

Why must they?: they are now competing with people that will, thus to keep up, they must go what the in-demand employees will.  (Honestly, I can't believe you're asking this question.)

What do you mean by "keep up."  As in, keep up with the Joneses?

The other part isn't rigorous, but if the labor supply grows, the extra money is unlikely to exceed whatever the hourly rate is: certainly this is the case at where I work, where they realized that people could be bullied into working extra hours and didn't need to be positively incentivized.

*How* will the labor supply increase?  Does working evenings cause people to spontaneously clone?

If Person A doesn't want to work more than 40 hours a week, and Person B wants to work 60, and The Firm wants people to work infinity hours a week, Person B has a competitive advantage over Persona A, unless Person A hides his distaste and agrees to work 60 hours a week.  The labor supply of people willing to work 60 hours a week just doubled.  IT'S LIKE MAGIC.

[Sheilbh]

If Person A doesn't want to work more than 40 hours a week, and Person B wants to work 60, and The Firm wants people to work infinity hours a week, Person B has a competitive advantage over Persona A, unless Person A hides his distaste and agrees to work 60 hours a week.  The labor supply of people willing to work 60 hours a week just doubled.  IT'S LIKE MAGIC.

Yep. Try working in service and trying to get even half your weekends or evenings off. And of course by doing it you're being a dick because someone else in the team will be doing it for you. And there's no extra money involved.

I'd have less of an issue if overtime were still a thing

[alfred russel]

Working nights and weekends puts people out of synch with the rest of society. Yes it is needed for some professions, and yes everyone is inconvenienced by not be able to do grocery shopping at 2 am on a Saturday night. The people that work those odd hours tend to be the more marginal workers, and this is a big burden for them when providing childcare, obtaining additional educational opportunities, etc.

Up to the point it starts creating unemployment or serious adverse economic impacts, I support the German system (though obviously living in the US system works better for someone like me that has a normal hour job anyway).

[Ideologue]

If Person A doesn't want to work more than 40 hours a week, and Person B wants to work 60, and The Firm wants people to work infinity hours a week, Person B has a competitive advantage over Persona A, unless Person A hides his distaste and agrees to work 60 hours a week.  The labor supply of people willing to work 60 hours a week just doubled.  IT'S LIKE MAGIC.

Yep. Try working in service and trying to get even half your weekends or evenings off. And of course by doing it you're being a dick because someone else in the team will be doing it for you. And there's no extra money involved.

I'd have less of an issue if overtime were still a thing

I'd have less of an issue with it if I were just permitted to do it.  Although I've barely been able to get through 40 lately with priv work.  It's stressful and exhausting, yet just as tedious!

I find it amazing that I have to explain the mechanism by which this occurs to anyone living in 2014, though.

[PDH]

Hi.  I like pancakes.

[Jacob]

Jacob, what is abhorrent about an individual making a choice that he believes betters his position?  If a worker is willing to sacrifice his evenings and weekends in exchange for more money, who are we to tell him that his choice is immoral?

Re your point about German retail unions opposing extended hours, that's all fine and good as far as it goes, but it doesn't tell us if 100% of their membership feels the same way, and it doesn't tell at all how prospective employees who are not members of the union feel.

If in fact 100% of potential German retail workers would absolutely refuse to work evenings and weekends, then the legislation is pointless.

There is nothing abhorrent about individuals making a choice, believing it will better their situations. And there isn't anything wrong with choosing to sacrifice evenings and weekends in exchange for more money, that's not immoral at all.

What is abhorrent, however, is using the exact same argument for justifying late shifts and weekend work as is used for justifying straight up slavery without either explaining where and how the line is drawn between the two or alternately owning that you are in fact in favour of slavery.

Because here's the thing - the end of the sixteen hour workday, the end of child labour, the drastic lowering of the "acceptable deaths" amongst workers, the repudiation of sexual harassment being a privilege of being the boss, the end of employers enforcing non-work related morality strictures on their staff,  the implementation of safety standards in food and medicine, and many other things that are the foundation of our quality of life did not come about as the result of the free market and employees exercising individual choices as they bargained with potential employers. They all came about due to collective bargaining and/ or regulatory schemes imposed by the government.

It is not abhorrent to trade your labour for a wage to the best of your ability. What is abhorrent are systems that destroy and undermine the bargaining power of workers, and leave them vulnerable to exploitation, as is blithely appealing to "freedom" in arguing for dismantling the systems that have provided unparalleled improvements for the vast majority of the population.

The free market left entirely to its own devices leads to concentration of wealth and power and monopolistic practices at the expense of workers and consumers, as the powerful continue to accumulate advantage and apply it effectively to accumulate even more.

Stores open 24-7 can be perfectly fine. It's the argument you present for it that is not fine.

[Ed Anger]

Hi.  I like pancakes.

I'm a waffle man.

[Admiral Yi]

Don't you go a-screechin' boy. 

If Person A doesn't want to work more than 40 hours a week, and Person B wants to work 60, and The Firm wants people to work infinity hours a week, Person B has a competitive advantage over Persona A, unless Person A hides his distaste and agrees to work 60 hours a week.  The labor supply of people willing to work 60 hours a week just doubled.  IT'S LIKE MAGIC.

I really have no idea how this relates to our discussion.