The Labor Pains Megathread

[Jacob]

If that is the only option available, there's not much bargaining going on.

Exactly.

[Jacob]

This is why I bring up the slavery issue in regards to libertarianism.  I can imagine a situation where people sign contracts for loans that stipulate that failure to pay back the loan results in enslavement.  This situation seems entirely in accordance with libertarian principles.

And it's certainly in accordance with the history and practice of slavery as it has been and is practice.

The question is whether Yi thinks this is the way the world should work, or whether some limits should be put in place to prevent the free market from incentivizing slavery.

[crazy canuck]

This is why I bring up the slavery issue in regards to libertarianism.  I can imagine a situation where people sign contracts for loans that stipulate that failure to pay back the loan results in enslavement.  This situation seems entirely in accordance with libertarian principles.

And it's certainly in accordance with the history and practice of slavery as it has been and is practice.

The question is whether Yi thinks this is the way the world should work, or whether some limits should be put in place to prevent the free market from incentivizing slavery.

[Yi] First slavery now indentured servitude.  Where will this slippery slope of regulation end?  People should be able to bargain freely.  If people are not willing to be slaves or indentured servants there would be no slaves or indentured servants. [Yi]

[LaCroix]

Are you familiar with the concept of 'rights' as opposed to 'terms and conditions'?

i don't think any western democratic nation thinks that people have a right to work only 9-5. people have a right to be free from slavery or unnecessarily hazardous work environments, but they don't have a right to be free from a night shift.

[Admiral Yi]

Because the hypothetical person doesn't have much bargaining power, but does have a need to have food and shelter.

If he doesn't have much bargaining power, that must mean other hypothetical people don't find working evenings and weekends in the German retail sector particularly onerous.

[MadImmortalMan]

Are you familiar with the concept of 'rights' as opposed to 'terms and conditions'?

i don't think any western democratic nation thinks that people have a right to work only 9-5. people have a right to be free from slavery or unnecessarily hazardous work environments, but they don't have a right to be free from a night shift.

Sure they do. All they have to do is not take the job.

[Admiral Yi]

Exactly.

Weren't we talking about the real world? 

[LaCroix]

All they have to do is not take the job.

many people do this, yes. and an employer is allowed to schedule an employee for a night shift. hence, no right to be free from a night shift.

[DGuller]

Because the hypothetical person doesn't have much bargaining power, but does have a need to have food and shelter.

If he doesn't have much bargaining power, that must mean other hypothetical people don't find working evenings and weekends in the German retail sector particularly onerous.

Or it may mean that other hypothetical people don't have much bargaining power either, and do what they need to do to keep their job.

[Jacob]

Are you familiar with the concept of 'rights' as opposed to 'terms and conditions'?

i don't think any western democratic nation thinks that people have a right to work only 9-5. people have a right to be free from slavery or unnecessarily hazardous work environments, but they don't have a right to be free from a night shift.

It appears that several Western democratic nations do think that people have a right to a common day of rest.

[Jacob]

Exactly.

Weren't we talking about the real world?

Indeed.

[Admiral Yi]

Or it may mean that other hypothetical people don't have much bargaining power either, and do what they need to do to keep their job.

So we have a large group of people, let's call them German unskilled workers, who have "not much bargaining power," and by your analysis will accept pretty much anything that is offered to them.  Yet we find, in a country with no legal limits on how much or little a worker must be paid, that these German unskilled workers are being paid significantly more than zero euros per hour.

How is that so?

[Admiral Yi]

Indeed.

In the real world people *always* have options.

[LaCroix]

It appears that several Western democratic nations do think that people have a right to a common day of rest.

it doesn't seem like it. in germany, many employees work on sundays. some german states regulate sunday hours more strictly than other german states, but that doesn't mean no employer may scheduled an employee to work on a sunday. the laws allow it.

[Jacob]

In the real world people *always* have options.

That's a fairly broad statement, to the point of being meaningless.