The Labor Pains Megathread

[Admiral Yi]

That's a fairly broad statement, to the point of being meaningless.

No it's not.  You claim that people only have no options, thus have no bargaining power.  This is patently false.

[Jacob]

That's a fairly broad statement, to the point of being meaningless.

No it's not.  You claim that people only have no options, thus have no bargaining power.  This is patently false.

I'm curious what sort of bargaining power you think these people have:

http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-24560937

Or are you suggesting they don't reside in the real world?

[DGuller]

Or it may mean that other hypothetical people don't have much bargaining power either, and do what they need to do to keep their job.

So we have a large group of people, let's call them German unskilled workers, who have "not much bargaining power," and by your analysis will accept pretty much anything that is offered to them.  Yet we find, in a country with no legal limits on how much or little a worker must be paid, that these German unskilled workers are being paid significantly more than zero euros per hour.

How is that so?

No, that is not the conclusion "by my analysis".  It may be you analysis, but I would definitely not want to be associated with that kind of analysis. 

Lack of bargaining power means that the negotiated price is close to the point at which you would walk away.  That most of the economic surplus generated by the transaction all goes to one party.  Lack of bargaining power means that two economic actors don't meet in the middle when it comes to settling the price, but rather one party is forced to always agree to a bottom dollar deal.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm curious what sort of bargaining power you think these people have:

http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-24560937

Or are you suggesting they don't reside in the real world?

I'm curious what connection you think there is between Punjabi bonded labor and German retail workers.

[Admiral Yi]

No, that is not the conclusion "by my analysis".  It may be you analysis, but I would definitely not want to be associated with that kind of analysis.

Your words:

Or it may mean that other hypothetical people don't have much bargaining power either, and do what they need to do to keep their job.

Lack of bargaining power means that the negotiated price is close to the point at which you would walk away.  That most of the economic surplus generated by the transaction all goes to one party.  Lack of bargaining power means that two economic actors don't meet in the middle when it comes to settling the price, but rather one party is forced to always agree to a bottom dollar deal.

What does this have to with the question of whether wages would rise for unpleasant evening and weekend shifts?

[DGuller]

No, that is not the conclusion "by my analysis".  It may be you analysis, but I would definitely not want to be associated with that kind of analysis.

Your words:

Or it may mean that other hypothetical people don't have much bargaining power either, and do what they need to do to keep their job.

Doing what they need to do to keep a job doesn't mean agreeing to near-zero wages.  Being employed is not costless, for one.

Lack of bargaining power means that the negotiated price is close to the point at which you would walk away.  That most of the economic surplus generated by the transaction all goes to one party.  Lack of bargaining power means that two economic actors don't meet in the middle when it comes to settling the price, but rather one party is forced to always agree to a bottom dollar deal.

What does this have to with the question of whether wages would rise for unpleasant evening and weekend shifts?

I don't know.  I was talking about what lack of bargaining power means.

[CountDeMoney]

I have as much bargaining power now as I did 3 years ago. 

[DGuller]

But I guess you are right under some circumstances.  If we enter the enlightened stage where there are no labor protections, and workers have to always get the bottom dollar for their labor, then the bottom dollar would be higher for weekends and holidays. 

However, if you start off on the slippery slope of trying to even out the power for the workers by legal protections, then you have to do it evenly.  You can't mandate minimum wage but not mandate safe working conditions, for example, or otherwise employers will compensate for the higher mandated wages by making conditions more dangerous if that saves them a penny.

[Jacob]

I'm curious what sort of bargaining power you think these people have:

http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/bonded_labour/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-24560937

Or are you suggesting they don't reside in the real world?

I'm curious what connection you think there is between Punjabi bonded labor and German retail workers.

1) They are people in the real world, who according to your overly broad statement always have a choice. And apparently they've chosen bonded labour.

2) In choosing bonded labour, it appears that their other choices were less appealing and/or they suffered from a disparity in information and leverage; in other words there exists - in the real world - situations where people bargain away their basic rights.

3A) Presumably, you think this is a bad thing; in which case it undermines the principal argument you're making, that there is nothing wrong with uneven bargaining positions in a free market. It clearly illustrates the concept that uneven distribution in capital, knowledge, and social power can lead to abhorrent outcomes, and that we need safeguards to prevent that. Many of these safeguards exist in modern Western society, and should be protected and refined, not torn down in the name of the free market.

3B) Alternately, you think that's perfectly fine that people bargain away basic human rights like that, and that it is the way the free market should work. In that case, your principal argument is not undermined, merely abhorrent.

There are many good arguments for having extended shopping hours, but the fact that low wage earners are free to bargain as they wish with their employers is not one of them. In fact, as I understand the restriction on retail hours are partially the result of retail workers - as represented by their labour representatives - have been using their bargaining power.

[CountDeMoney]

But I guess you are right under some circumstances.  If we enter the enlightened stage where there are no labor protections, and workers have to always get the bottom dollar for their labor, then the bottom dollar would be higher for weekends and holidays. 

However, if you start off on the slippery slope of trying to even out the power for the workers by legal protections, then you have to do it evenly.  You can't mandate minimum wage but not mandate safe working conditions, for example, or otherwise employers will compensate for the higher mandated wages by making conditions more dangerous if that saves them a penny.

If only there were organizations that existed to represent workers by protecting them and requiring employers to maintain certain standards, such wages and safe working conditions;  one that would unite them in a common cause of empowerment against exploitation.   

[Eddie Teach]

Restricting store hours means fewer jobs and also inconveniences those workers when they want to shop/eat/etc. I really don't see the advantage of having the government step in and enforce such restrictions.

[Admiral Yi]

Jacob, what is abhorrent about an individual making a choice that he believes betters his position?  If a worker is willing to sacrifice his evenings and weekends in exchange for more money, who are we to tell him that his choice is immoral?

Re your point about German retail unions opposing extended hours, that's all fine and good as far as it goes, but it doesn't tell us if 100% of their membership feels the same way, and it doesn't tell at all how prospective employees who are not members of the union feel.

If in fact 100% of potential German retail workers would absolutely refuse to work evenings and weekends, then the legislation is pointless.

[Ed Anger]

If I need some KY jelly at 2am on Sunday, I can get it.

'Murica.

[garbon]

If I need some KY jelly at 2am on Sunday, I can get it.

'Murica.

If I need an overpriced cable at 4am I can step to my 24 hour Best Buy.

America.

[jimmy olsen]

What you described is Britain in the 70s. Thatcher liberalised (and destroyed) the pubs. She limited the number of pubs a brewery could own to 2000 and required them to allow landlords to sell guest beers. The idea was it'd lead to a more free, competitive market.

That's an eye poppingly high limit! That's a significant limitation?