Scottish Independence: Quebec Edition

[viper37]

The big bad "other" is such a big part of the Scottish and Quebecer mythos that you'll never convince the separatist that separating could actually harm their beloved nation. Economic realities (subsidies and common currency), political realities and the like mean nothing when someone is focused on the wrongs done 100 plus years in the past.

well, it's hard to foccus on the wrongs that will be done 100 years from now...

[garbon]

I echo, V's statements of the vague summary then. Hard to combat such a loose statement.

than surrender to my superior arguments & feelings and we'll call it quits

Alternatively, you could debate with what people are saying now instead of what someone, theoretically said more than a decade ago.

[viper37]

Worst of this is of course, that if Scottish/French American independence becomes a reality but these states fail or at least end up worse than before, that will do zero to convince the likes of you. It would still be the fault of the English/Canadian state, not yours.

One theory holds that once independant, Quebec would have no one else to blame for its economic difficulties.  but I fear you are right, we would still blame the Americans and the Canadians for our troubles.

[garbon]

We are different, much different. Culturally, politically, economically, etc from Rest of Canada. They have trouble with that fact.

Can you quantify that a bit? Seems less like RoC has a problem with Quebec being different and more that Quebec is upset that RoC won't recognize those differences / allow Quebec a more privileged place.

I can try.

Culturally. There is obviously the language. That is the driver of most of the differences. We, as customers, consume a lot less American cultural products than the rest of Canada. Our TV, Movie & Radio industry are more popular than their English-Canada counterparts. We don't get married anymore. Religion is not talked about in the public sphere(unless to try to minimize the small influence it has).

Politically. We are more socialist then the RoC. As provincial parties go, none are really right. In Federal Election, while Alberta votes PCC blindly, Ontario votes Liberals & PCC blindly. Last election, Quebecers elected a majority of NDP mps(because the Bloc Québécois wasn't an option anymore) and the Liberals had a deadstart Leader.

Economically. I am not sure how it works in all provinces but the Quebec government is involved in many spheres. We, has a province, don't really have non-governemental Venture Capitals.

Okay sure, I can dig those differences. What's RoC's beef with those though? Particularly on the political front, those seem more like issues for Quebecers in dealing with RoC rather than the other way around (as in Fed establishment is then biased for RoC instead of Quebec).

[viper37]

What is it that the French Canadians want that they aren't getting?

What are these demands/suggestions that the Feds are refusing to grant/consider?

The minimal conditions that were rejected by English Canada, under the influence of intense Liberal Party's campaigning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meech_Lake_Accord#Agreement
It led directly to the second referendum.

[Valmy]

Hope!

Yes is Kim Jong-un's choice
No is mine!

Hey it worked in 2004.

[Grey Fox]

We are different, much different. Culturally, politically, economically, etc from Rest of Canada. They have trouble with that fact.

Can you quantify that a bit? Seems less like RoC has a problem with Quebec being different and more that Quebec is upset that RoC won't recognize those differences / allow Quebec a more privileged place.

I can try.

Culturally. There is obviously the language. That is the driver of most of the differences. We, as customers, consume a lot less American cultural products than the rest of Canada. Our TV, Movie & Radio industry are more popular than their English-Canada counterparts. We don't get married anymore. Religion is not talked about in the public sphere(unless to try to minimize the small influence it has).

Politically. We are more socialist then the RoC. As provincial parties go, none are really right. In Federal Election, while Alberta votes PCC blindly, Ontario votes Liberals & PCC blindly. Last election, Quebecers elected a majority of NDP mps(because the Bloc Québécois wasn't an option anymore) and the Liberals had a deadstart Leader.

Economically. I am not sure how it works in all provinces but the Quebec government is involved in many spheres. We, has a province, don't really have non-governemental Venture Capitals.

Okay sure, I can dig those differences. What's RoC's beef with those though? Particularly on the political front, those seem more like issues for Quebecers in dealing with RoC rather than the other way around (as in Fed establishment is then biased for RoC instead of Quebec).

Perequation, basically. Quebec (for negotiated reasons) gets the vast majority of the redistribuation money.

Also, the RoC Canadians are not-something. Not-Americans, Not-British, Not-Quebecers. Western Canadians are Not-Ontarians. That must hurt.

[Malthus]

Perequation, basically. Quebec (for negotiated reasons) gets the vast majority of the redistribuation money.

Also, the RoC Canadians are not-something. Not-Americans, Not-British, Not-Quebecers. Western Canadians are Not-Ontarians. That must hurt.

In short, 'we have a special culture, which emphasizes a lot of socialist redistribution, but we don't have the money to pay for that. You, the RoC, please fund it.' 

'Why should we?' 

'Because if you don't, we will take that as proof you hate us and leave the country'. 

It's a financial shake-down, pure and simple. It also leads one to wonder WTF would happen to their much-vaunted socialism if they did leave.

As far as the "you guys don't have a real identity" thing goes - in point of fact, we do, and the Grallons among you are constantly upset about it. It is simply not one based on ethno-nationalism, but on a shared patriotism based on a pride in our history and institutions (maybe misplaced at times  ). 

Though as always, it is fun to be told that we don't have an identity and so have a duty to pay for those who do. How could that possibly lead to resentment? 

[Grey Fox]

That's bullshit.

You don't fund it. There is a long list of services that the Federal government doesn't provide in Quebec but the provincial government does.

The federal government is only giving the money it collected for those services back.

[viper37]

As far as the "you guys don't have a real identity" thing goes - in point of fact, we do, and the Grallons among you are constantly upset about it. It is simply not one based on ethno-nationalism, but on a shared patriotism based on a pride in our history and institutions (maybe misplaced at times  ). 

based on love and submission to foreign non elected leader.  It makes sense, when you don't think about it...

Canadien identity evolved as not-American from the American Revolution up to today.  Just as an American president can win a debate by saying "He wants Canada!", the biggest slur you can adress to a Canadian Prime Minister candidate is to say  "he wants to make us Americans" or "he has American values".

[viper37]

It's a financial shake-down, pure and simple. It also leads one to wonder WTF would happen to their much-vaunted socialism if they did leave.

We could simply perceive 100% of our taxes and redistribute to Canada a share of it, previously agreed, for the services we really use.

And we could modify at our will, depending on how we feel.  I mean, just like the actual system, but with role reversal

[garbon]

Perequation, basically. Quebec (for negotiated reasons) gets the vast majority of the redistribuation money.

So RoC cares not because of any of the differences you listed about Quebec but rather because of what it perceives as unfair payments to Quebec?

Also, the RoC Canadians are not-something. Not-Americans, Not-British, Not-Quebecers. Western Canadians are Not-Ontarians. That must hurt.

You've lost me here.

[Grallon]

This is, of course, a steaming pile of special pleading.

...

What was I saying again about contemptuous dismissal?  I rest my case.



G.

[viper37]

This is, of course, a steaming pile of special pleading. The fact is that Canada is already about as decentralized a federation as one could find,

that's Canadian propaganda for you

We are much more centralized the the United States and the Prime Minister office has a lot more power in Canada than does the Presidential office in the US.

[Malthus]

That's bullshit.

You don't fund it. There is a long list of services that the Federal government doesn't provide in Quebec but the provincial government does.

The federal government is only giving the money it collected for those services back.

Not sure what you mean. Quebec gets the lion's share of 'equalization payments' and has for a long, long time. The amount of payment is not linked, as far as I am aware, to specific programs.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/03/24/mark-milke-quebecs-fiscal-independence-myth/