Scottish Independence

[Valmy]

LOL all I said was that ethnically based states are a bad idea. 

I do remember our previous conversations on the subject.  I was just describing your general feeling, not your textual words.

There's just no difference between nationalism and patriotism, except that patriotims requires a state.

I do not recall ever distinguishing between nationalism and patriotism.  You might have me confused with somebody else.  Didn't the US have patriots before there was a state?  Anyway...

My point has always been, so far as I am aware, that individuals have rights.  Groups of people do not.  Ethnic nationalism is the idea that states should express the sovereignty of an ethnic group.  Further that ethnic groups require one to express their will and protect their interests somehow.  Not only do I find this idea absurd (why would people represent my interests and share my policy preferences just because we are of the same ethnic group?) but problematic.  Because then minorities represent a threat to the 'rights' of the group.  There is something pretty visceral about ethnic state aspirations that seems to me makes very good people do very bad things.  And then you have impacts like people who have been living in a town for five hundred years still be considered foreigners.

My preference is that states should be formed around political ideas or maybe a culture that easily accepts outsiders as insiders (one of the reasons I think France is cool because just acting French pretty much makes you French....or at least that was my romantic image).  But even that has its flaws when you start getting into political utopian type states like, oh I don't know, maybe Communism or something.

Also remember I live in a state where my ethnic group is no longer a majority but a plurality.  And I see people freaking out about it and it fills me with a certain amount of amusement and contempt.

[viper37]

I did like them explaining how Scotland should not be suckered by the British government like they were by Canada's...because the situations are perfectly analogous for some reason.

I didn't say they should reject the proposal, nor did I say they should accept it.  Again, it is not my place to tell the Scottish people what they should do (not that they would listen to me anyway, nobody ever listens to me! )
If they were to seperate, I would be happy for them.  If they were to remain in the union, I would be happy for them.

I have expressed my doubt that England will live by its promises, that is all.  And yes, that is based on personal, local, experience.

Maybe the United Kingdom's politicians are honest and trustworthy politicians unlike the politicians of the Canadian Liberal Party.

I have also expressed concerns that a deal on autonomy was never reached with Scotland before the independance movement was allowed to grow so big.

I do not consider the Scots morons because they wish to attain independance.  Nor will I consider them morons if they refuse to seperate from the UK.  I do fear however, now, after so much as been said and done toward independance, that things will be worst for them if they chose to stay in the union.  Again, based on my own localized experience.

The situations are not identical, no two situations are identical, but they do have some similarities.

Wether or not it is in Scotland's best interests to remain part of the UK, I will leave that to the Scots to decide.  Unlike you, I do not believe they are naively being manipulated by evil nationalist liars.

Although I have no proofs of that, I believe the Scots to be no more or no less susceptible to open political propaganda, lies, half-truth, etc,  than Americans, Canadians or Quebecers.

Maybe they are being lied to, and maybe they are naive enough to believe in those lies.  But isn't this democracy?  Politicians can't often tell the truth, the truth doesn't get them elected, and if they aren't elected, they can't make the changes they believe are the better for the country.  Or you could be cynical and say that every politician is in there for the corruption money and/or the fat paycheck in the private sector at the end of their political carreer.

[Valmy]

Maybe they are being lied to, and maybe they are naive enough to believe in those lies.  But isn't this democracy?  Politicians can't often tell the truth, the truth doesn't get them elected, and if they aren't elected, they can't make the changes they believe are the better for the country.  Or you could be cynical and say that every politician is in there for the corruption money and/or the fat paycheck in the private sector at the end of their political carreer.

Well you got me there.  But you could say the same thing about the promises of the SNP.

[viper37]

Well you got me there.  But you could say the same thing about the promises of the SNP.

Of course, it's a possibility.  If they promised heaven after Yes, and no troubles at all, you got them caught in a lie right there.  It's gonna be a rough patch either way.  And from what I've read, they'll have to forget about their dream of a socialist state without UK's subsidies. 

And if/when they join the Euro zone, I'm pretty sure there'll be a clause of "no money transfer" for a few years.

[Tamas]

Europe is competing with massive continent-spanning entities like US, China, India, Russia, and here everyone is busy breaking up into smaller and smaller states.

[viper37]

No one will be expelled from Flanders if and when we achieve independence. It's rather well known that francophone press is not shy of blatant (and no so blatant) lying when it comes to portraying Flanders. No wonder when you know that they get their queue from francophone politicians.

Didn't the old VB (Vlaams Block) push for expulsion of immigrants, 2nd generation included?

[viper37]

Europe is competing with massive continent-spanning entities like US, China, India, Russia, and here everyone is busy breaking up into smaller and smaller states.

Imagine WWII.  Imagine it, just like happened, with the alliances as they were.

Now, imagine if French resistance fighters decided the British and the Americans were a bigger threat than Nazi germany and started undermining their efforts, passing intel to Germany.  Imagine if the Soviets, as they liberated territories held by the nazis, releases captures prisoners inside allied held territory to have them wreak havoc on the British & American armies so that they would not advance too quickly.

Would such an alliance be really beneficial when everyone is trying to achieve its own little goal instad of pushing toward common interests?

There is a huge difference between the theory of a big state and its reality.  It's always based on compromise, but more often than not, the compromise always benefit the majority, not the minorities.

Didn't Hungarians create problems in Austria-Hungary when they felt they were being ignored by the central power, wich led to some change in Austria's approach toward the other part of the realm?

[PJL]

Some good news for the No leaders - Best Korea supports Scottish independence!

From the Telegraph:  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/11089388/North-Korea-backs-Scottish-independence.html

North Korea 'backs Scottish independence'

Exclusive: Kim Jong-un's regime would support an independent Scotland under Alex Salmond and is hoping to trade its natural resources for Scotch whisky, officials tell Telegraph

North Korea is quietly backing the Yes vote in Scotland and would be keen to increase trade with a newly independent Edinburgh, according to officials of the Pyongyang regime.

"I think that independence would be a very positive thing for Scotland," Choe Kwan-il, managing editor of the Choson Sinbo newspaper, told The Telegraph.

Supported by Pyongyang, the Tokyo-based publication provides news to an estimated 200,000 Koreans who live in Japan but swear allegiance – and send vast amounts of financial support – to North Korea.

"We have not reported on the vote in Scotland yet, but we will after it has happened," Choe said.

"I believe that every person has the right to be a member of an independent nation, to have sovereignty, to live in peace and to enjoy equality," he said. "And I believe that a majority of Scots feel the same and will vote for independence."
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So Chung-on, director of the International Affairs Bureau of The General Association of Korean Residents of Japan, said he was unaware if the forthcoming vote has been reported to the public in North Korea, but added that it almost certainly will be if Scotland votes "Yes".

"The result will be very important and if the Scots do vote to become independent, then North Korea will be prepared to respond to that," he said.

He said it is unlikely that North Korea will seek to establish an embassy in Edinburgh – due to cost concerns – although he added that he expects Edinburgh to have a diplomatic presence in Pyongyang through the existing British Embassy.

"I believe independence will be positive as it will encourage personal exchanges and provide both countries with business chances," said Choe. "North Korea is rich in natural resources and we like the taste of Scotch whisky, so we can be beneficial to each other."

[Eddie Teach]

So, how about them Scots? 

[viper37]

So, how about them Scots? 

nobody cares about them anymore...

The London Times require a subscription, wich I don't have.  All my news are in French, and I can't be arsed to translate them.  I was hoping the British crowd would wrestle back this thread toward Scottish independance with a few well placed articles, but we seem to have scared them away.

[Malthus]

So, how about them Scots? 

Wake us up when Mel Gibson ritually beheads the Queen. 

[garbon]

As for the latest opinion polls still show a narrow but consistent lead for "No", 48-42%.

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/poll-tracker

Some hope.

[viper37]

Anyway, since the British have deserted the place, it's good time to bring it back on the topic at hand:
BBC poll tracker

48% No
42% Yes
10% Don't know.

Doesn't look as bad as some make out to be.  The camp seem to be pretty fixed with a majority of no.  The IDK, of course, are the tricky part of the prediction.

[Josquius]

Should we give Scotland control over immigration?
it will be funny to see third worlders struggling to learn Gaelic for those extra points... And hey, it will give all 1000 Gaellic speakers out there so many job opportunities!

[Savonarola]

Should we give Scotland control over immigration?
it will be funny to see third worlders struggling to learn Gaelic for those extra points... And hey, it will give all 1000 Gaellic speakers out there so many job opportunities!

I've read that there are more (Scottish) Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia than Scotland.  Canada could allow in immigrants, teach them Gaelic, mark them up, and move them on to Scotland.  It would be the new triangular trade route.

Is Scottish Gaelic a big deal in Scotland the way that Irish Gaelic is in Ireland?