Scottish Independence: Quebec Edition

[grumbler]

It's fun to watch the very people who think America's "States' Rights" people are kooks spout their exact line when it comes to their own tribal rights.

I don't have a problem with the people of Quebec insisting that immigrants attend French-language schools.  I think that's just common sense if you want the immigrants to be able to be successful in that society.  But whining about not having one tax form?  Ye gods.

[Josquius]

One thing in curious about is; how do you keep immigrants in Quebec?
Do immigrants have visas that restrict them to one province?

[Grey Fox]

No, we don't do anything to keep them here. Nor is there provincial visas.

[viper37]

But whining about not having one tax form?  Ye gods.

the other provinces chose to delegate that responsibility to the Federal government. Before the 50s, that was the same for Quebec, but we did not receive our share of the money we sent, so the government created it's own taxes to force the Feds to back up.

Every now and then, you hear some province whine about the same fact - that they don't get enough money - and threaten to create their own taxation level.  Then the Feds give them more money and it's quiet for a while.

I suppose for an American, it's an efficient way of governance, but I don't feel that way.  And since I don't like to be cheated on my taxes twice and feel that once is enough, I'd prefer it if my province would collect 100% of its taxes and then send its share to the Feds.  Whatever other provinces do is none of my concern, so long as they don't whine we get too much powers.

[viper37]

One thing in curious about is; how do you keep immigrants in Quebec?

the same way they are kept elsewhere: efforts are made for ther integration and eventually they decide to settle here or move to another province/country.

[Valmy]

One thing in curious about is; how do you keep immigrants in Quebec?

The nefarious Committee for Francophone Public Safety guillotines any who dare try to leave.

[Grey Fox]

Unless you are an anglo, then you get a get out care package.

[Jacob]

One thing in curious about is; how do you keep immigrants in Quebec?
Do immigrants have visas that restrict them to one province?

You don't.

Plenty of people immigrate to Quebec, because they fit those particular provincial requirements a bit better than other ones, and settle elsewhere in Canada. It's not just Quebec who faces that issue, however.

Of course, there's nothing preventing immigrants from moving to Quebec after immigrating to another province either.

[Josquius]

You don't.

Plenty of people immigrate to Quebec, because they fit those particular provincial requirements a bit better than other ones, and settle elsewhere in Canada. It's not just Quebec who faces that issue, however.

Of course, there's nothing preventing immigrants from moving to Quebec after immigrating to another province either.

It strikes me that Quebec would get more of them. Apparently studying French is pretty big with educated Iranians largely for the reason of the big extra points it gives with Quebec and it being the easiest place to migrate to.

One thing in curious about is; how do you keep immigrants in Quebec?

the same way they are kept elsewhere: efforts are made for ther integration and eventually they decide to settle here or move to another province/country.

How does it work though?
In the UK efforts to spread immigrants out tend not to work, they all just head to London or wherever their group already has a large presence.

[Jacob]

How does it work though?
In the UK efforts to spread immigrants out tend not to work, they all just head to London or wherever their group already has a large presence.

It doesn't work.

[Barrister]

How does it work though?
In the UK efforts to spread immigrants out tend not to work, they all just head to London or wherever their group already has a large presence.

It doesn't work.

It works somewhat.

Manitoba has a provincial nominee program to try and encourage immigration there.  I think the experience has been that while some do in fact eventually move to Vancouver / Toronto, many wind up staying.  I think they also try to encourage people to come who have family, or have a large pre-existing ethnic community in Winnipeg to rely on for support.

[Jacob]

It works somewhat.

Manitoba has a provincial nominee program to try and encourage immigration there.  I think the experience has been that while some do in fact eventually move to Vancouver / Toronto, many wind up staying.  I think they also try to encourage people to come who have family, or have a large pre-existing ethnic community in Winnipeg to rely on for support.

Yeah sure. What I meant is that it doesn't work in keeping people who intend to move elsewhere from moving there. At best it gives immigrants a slight window to consider staying in the province where they were PNP immigrants (especially if it's tied to a specific job, of course - it's harder to move out on a job offer, usually).

The bottom line is that immigrants can move where ever they fancy as soon as they're in, and they do. The incentives to keep them in-province are pretty soft.

[viper37]

It strikes me that Quebec would get more of them. Apparently studying French is pretty big with educated Iranians largely for the reason of the big extra points it gives with Quebec and it being the easiest place to migrate to.

Who can emigrate is in the hands of the Federal government.
Quebec gets to pre-select immigrants, but in the end, the Fed gov decides who comes in or not.
Since there's no Canadian embassy in Teheran* and no Quebec's office either, the only Iranians we would really get a are refugees and these are strictly in the hands of the Federal government who decides where they go.


*Canadian embassy was closed in 2012.

How does it work though?
In the UK efforts to spread immigrants out tend not to work, they all just head to London or wherever their group already has a large presence.

Efforts are made to find them a suitable location to live first, try to help them find a job, give them french classes.
There are various measures they can benefit, depending on how they arrived here and where they came from.
I know some immigrants are offerend financial incentives, but I don't know the specifics (how it applies, to whom it applies, when it applies)

Quebec has deals with some countries or part of countries to recognize their school diplomas, but it's still a fucking mess for most places, especially for doctors and engineers coming from Switzerland, Eastern Europe, India, the Middle East, North Africa and various African countries with semi-decent university systems.  Quite often, they are being asked to redo their entire university classes here, wich discourages most and then they either leave elsewhere in the country where it will be easier (Ontario has great program to encourage foreing doctors to immigrate there) or for the US or simply go back home.

It's the area where we have the most work to do, and where the provincial government needs to take a strong stance against the unions and professional corps restricting access to work.  Fat chance of that happening with any government in the current situation.

Also, I think the hardest part is not to attrack immigrants, or even keep them in Quebec (when we have a pre-selection process), but to keep them where they are needed.  If we pre-select a doctor from France, he might be more interested to live in Montreal than to live in a small town ad the end of nowhere in eastern Quebec where there's an actual shortage of doctors.  And just imagine when they are "visible" minorities who get to immigrate in a small place 99,9% white and french, the shock is brutal for some of them.  We've had an influx of spanish speaking immigrants (Columbians, mostly) in my area, but eventually most of them left to where they could find a bigger community of their peers.

[Martinus]

I think my basic position on Scotland vs Quebec is this:

I think Scotland would be making a mistake to become independent because I think the average Scot would be worse off and the average English person would be worse off. However, I don't think there is any liberal issue involved, so I largely don't care that much. The liberal in me is ambivalent. I think Scotland as a separate nation will be poorer, but just as free (and maybe even slightly more free) as they are now. Same with England.

But the more I am enlightened about the reasons for why some people want Quebec to be free, the more I think that it is a terrible idea, regardless of the practical and economic effects, since I think the end result will be a nation that is considerably less free than the nation they seceded from. The very point of the secession is to allow the people who want a separate nation to more effectively discriminate against others - the thing they do not like about the current setup is that their province lacks the power to effectively restrict others freedom in the fashion they desire.

So while the broad strokes are similar (two ethnically distinct groups wishing to go their seperate ways from the whole), the details about *why* they want to do so, and what they would intend to do if they were to suceed are vastly different. Scotland would not be practically any different from England, as far as the rights of Scots are concerned. Quebec would be VERY different from Canada as far as the rights of people living in Quebec are concerned. And while the majority may be ok with that, the tyranny of the majority is something to be be avoided, not embraced, even if it is wrapped in the fig leaf of "protecting our culture".

Yeah, it's a bit like Palestine wanting to leave Israel so they can institute sharia.