Scottish Independence: Quebec Edition

[viper37]

If Quebec wants its own embasies, or $7-a-day daycare, that's Quebec's business. When we are expected to pay for such extravagance, you are making it our business, whether we like it or not. 

Than stop the equalization payments.  What are you waiting for?
Either you give the money to everyone unconditionnaly, or you establish some sort of rules for everyone to be followed.  You don't get to cherrypick what should one province do or do not do with the money transfer from equalization.

Quebec politics would be infinately easier without the Fed gov constant interventions, equalization payments included.

As for the superior model of socialism, every socialists believe their model is the best.  Have you ever met a socialist who told you his government was doing too much socialism?

Grallon is a socialist.  His vision of Quebec is that of a socialist heaven, like the majority of current PQ supporters.  Wich explains partly why they fell below 25% at the last election.  I think even Grallon did not vote for the PQ for fear of seeing a Liberal majority (it didn't work though).  Even the latest "frontal attacks" on Quebec's values have failed to convince a majority of people to hit the streets.  Union thugs can barely gather a few hundred people at the same place; not that it's not enough to intimidate politicians, mind you, but we're far, very far, from what we were seeing at the time of Bouchard's term as Premier.  And he did build a large social consensus before cutting anything, ensuring the union's approval.  Something the Liberals didn't ever bother with.

[Malthus]

This is, of course, a steaming pile of special pleading. The fact is that Canada is already about as decentralized a federation as one could find,

that's Canadian propaganda for you

We are much more centralized the the United States and the Prime Minister office has a lot more power in Canada than does the Presidential office in the US.

How many US states have their own "de facto" foreign embassies? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_International_Relations_(Quebec)

They ain't "de facto" foreign embassies.
They are akin to California's international trade offices.
Link
Other link

You don't go to a Quebec "embassy" because you lost your passport, are trapped in a war zone, disaster zone or because you face criminal charges.  You go there to build a social network that will help you develop your business in these foreign countries.  Wether it works or not, if we have enough for our money is another matter.  But they are nothing like embassies and are primarly asked at businesses rather than individuals (keep in mind that culture is a big business).

Next question?

Uh, no. They go far, far beyond "foreign trade".

Check out the Ministry website.

http://www.mrif.gouv.qc.ca/en/ententes-et-engagements/presentation

To provide just one example - Quebec has its very own system for sponsoring refugees. Canada has one, and Quebec has another.

[Malthus]

This is, of course, a steaming pile of special pleading. The fact is that Canada is already about as decentralized a federation as one could find,

that's Canadian propaganda for you

We are much more centralized the the United States and the Prime Minister office has a lot more power in Canada than does the Presidential office in the US.

How many US states have their own "de facto" foreign embassies? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_International_Relations_(Quebec)

I don't know about US states, but Alberta does.

http://www.international.alberta.ca/933.cfm

... which supports my point about how Canada is a pretty decentralized federation.

Though far as I know, Alberta does not have its own systems for (say) dealing with refugees.

[Maximus]

that's a common belief in Canada, that any change to the way the country is governed will fuck up things.  Canada is perfect, it should not change.  In the off chance that it would not be perfect, it should certainly not change to accomodate the desire of a predominently francophone province.

It's been the dominant factor in Canadian politics since Trudeau came to power.

I would not have expected an Albertan to share his point of view though...

Please, tell us more about this mythical 'Canada' that you have constructed.

[Barrister]

But I don't want to "fuck up" our federal government.   

that's a common belief in Canada, that any change to the way the country is governed will fuck up things.  Canada is perfect, it should not change.  In the off chance that it would not be perfect, it should certainly not change to accomodate the desire of a predominently francophone province.

It's been the dominant factor in Canadian politics since Trudeau came to power.

I would not have expected an Albertan to share his point of view though...

You forget my politics though - there are plenty of things I'd like to see changed in Ottawa (and in Edmonton, for that matter).

But what I'd like to see are concrete proposals - what specific areas would be better run by the province, rather than the federal government, and explanations why.  It's just I don't typically see that - demands from Quebec (and Scotland) are just for "more" powers.

Having worked for both the federal government, and the provincial government, I don't see any as more virtuous or capable than the other.

[viper37]

Uh, no. They go far, far beyond "foreign trade".

Check out the Ministry website.

http://www.mrif.gouv.qc.ca/en/ententes-et-engagements/presentation

To provide just one example - Quebec has its very own system for sponsoring refugees. Canada has one, and Quebec has another.

Somewhere around 2002-2003, a few deals were made the Federal government:
- control of immigration.  This avoids the Federal government sending unilingual anglophones in rural Quebec who are there forced to emigrate in Ontario because they are unable to function and adapt in this cultural background, leaving us with all the expenses and zero revenue.  I can relate to that, I would have a hard time if someone dropped me in the middle of Mexico.  No money was attached to this deal.
- Parental insurance.  Extended unemployement benefits for mothers&fathers of a newborn child.  The fed agreed to cut their EI rates in Quebec and Quebec took the space left.
- Employement and education.  Well, post-work education, the one you get from your employers.  Quebec develop it's own program, and again the federal left some taxation space.  Something that we came very close to lose last year, as you well know.

I'm not complaining on this, but they are nowhere permanent and rely on the Federal government's good will to renew them.  Had the Conservatives been a great shape all accross Canada, with a 10% lead in the polls just about everywhere, they whould have had their own programs, on top of the provincial ones.  For twice the cost.

International agreements are something many US States have.  We have international agreements with California and New York, so I guess they are able to sign international treaties... I can't believe politicians of both countries would agree to sign treaties that are de facto null and void...

[Malthus]

Uh, no. They go far, far beyond "foreign trade".

Check out the Ministry website.

http://www.mrif.gouv.qc.ca/en/ententes-et-engagements/presentation

To provide just one example - Quebec has its very own system for sponsoring refugees. Canada has one, and Quebec has another.

Somewhere around 2002-2003, a few deals were made the Federal government:
- control of immigration.  This avoids the Federal government sending unilingual anglophones in rural Quebec who are there forced to emigrate in Ontario because they are unable to function and adapt in this cultural background, leaving us with all the expenses and zero revenue.  I can relate to that, I would have a hard time if someone dropped me in the middle of Mexico.  No money was attached to this deal.
- Parental insurance.  Extended unemployement benefits for mothers&fathers of a newborn child.  The fed agreed to cut their EI rates in Quebec and Quebec took the space left.
- Employement and education.  Well, post-work education, the one you get from your employers.  Quebec develop it's own program, and again the federal left some taxation space.  Something that we came very close to lose last year, as you well know.

I'm not complaining on this, but they are nowhere permanent and rely on the Federal government's good will to renew them.  Had the Conservatives been a great shape all accross Canada, with a 10% lead in the polls just about everywhere, they whould have had their own programs, on top of the provincial ones.  For twice the cost.

International agreements are something many US States have.  We have international agreements with California and New York, so I guess they are able to sign international treaties... I can't believe politicians of both countries would agree to sign treaties that are de facto null and void...

I'm not saying they are "null and void", I'm merely pointing out that Quebec already has plenty of room to arrange programs as it sees fit: Canada is relatively decentralized, for a country, with robust provincial powers.

[Barrister]

I'm not complaining on this, but they are nowhere permanent and rely on the Federal government's good will to renew them.  Had the Conservatives been a great shape all accross Canada, with a 10% lead in the polls just about everywhere, they whould have had their own programs, on top of the provincial ones.  For twice the cost.

That doesn't sound like something Harper would do...

[Tamas]

That's bullshit.

You don't fund it. There is a long list of services that the Federal government doesn't provide in Quebec but the provincial government does.

The federal government is only giving the money it collected for those services back.

Soo, the federal government is collecting the tax for it, and the federal government giving that money to Quebec and telling them how to spend it.
Of course it is the federal government providing that service then.

[viper37]

Having worked for both the federal government, and the provincial government, I don't see any as more virtuous or capable than the other.

It's more a question of having stuff in one place, one government decision only, not 3-4 governments (city, county, province, federal) each having their own legislation.

Take environmental issues.  If you want to build something that would affect a river, you need the authorization of the city it is located in to do any work.  You need the approval of the MRC (Municipalité Régionale the Comté - similar to County).  You need the approval of Quebec's Environment Minister.  If that river ends directly or indirectly in the St-Lawrence river, you need the authorization of the Federal Environment Minister to proceed. 

I think things would be much more efficient if you only required one, or at most two authorization.  MRC and provincial government.  The localized organisation are much more able to evaluate the impact of some construction project than bureaucrats in a distant city acting along a general guidelines sheet.

Although the Federal government has never dared to do it, even though it has threatened to, it could very well authorize a project that a province has judged bad for its environment and we could do nothing about it.
And maybe the province would be wrong, that it wouldn't be anymore dangerous than anything else we already do.  But as a general principle, I prefer the provinces to make these kind of decisions, even though they not always 100% correct.

[viper37]

Soo, the federal government is collecting the tax for it, and the federal government giving that money to Quebec and telling them how to spend it.
Of course it is the federal government providing that service then.

Wich is why the system is fucked up and we need to reform it.

[viper37]

I'm not complaining on this, but they are nowhere permanent and rely on the Federal government's good will to renew them.  Had the Conservatives been a great shape all accross Canada, with a 10% lead in the polls just about everywhere, they whould have had their own programs, on top of the provincial ones.  For twice the cost.

That doesn't sound like something Harper would do...

He almost did it last year...  Chrétien often did it.  Didn't Trudeau do something that pissed off Alberants for generations to come?   What do you think will be Trudeau Jr's inspiration?  His dad or is political ennemy?  And what about Mulcair, does he strike you as someone willing to respect the provinces or someone who will decide of new mandatory federal "guidelines" and programs to achieve his agenda?

[Malthus]

If Quebec wants its own embasies, or $7-a-day daycare, that's Quebec's business. When we are expected to pay for such extravagance, you are making it our business, whether we like it or not. 

Than stop the equalization payments.  What are you waiting for?
Either you give the money to everyone unconditionnaly, or you establish some sort of rules for everyone to be followed.  You don't get to cherrypick what should one province do or do not do with the money transfer from equalization.

Quebec politics would be infinately easier without the Fed gov constant interventions, equalization payments included.

As for the superior model of socialism, every socialists believe their model is the best.  Have you ever met a socialist who told you his government was doing too much socialism?

Grallon is a socialist.  His vision of Quebec is that of a socialist heaven, like the majority of current PQ supporters.  Wich explains partly why they fell below 25% at the last election.  I think even Grallon did not vote for the PQ for fear of seeing a Liberal majority (it didn't work though).  Even the latest "frontal attacks" on Quebec's values have failed to convince a majority of people to hit the streets.  Union thugs can barely gather a few hundred people at the same place; not that it's not enough to intimidate politicians, mind you, but we're far, very far, from what we were seeing at the time of Bouchard's term as Premier.  And he did build a large social consensus before cutting anything, ensuring the union's approval.  Something the Liberals didn't ever bother with.

I think you are missing the point. I for one do not care what Quebec does with the money it gets from equalization - I care that Quebec has, consistently, over decades, essentially blackmailed the rest of the country into getting the lion's share of that money - in effect, a tax on the rest of us - because of its constant threats to break up the country if it doesn't get it. Evidence is that the feds constantly tinker with the (complex) funding formula to ensure that Quebec is paid at the expense of Ontario.

Combine that with boasting about how superior Quebec is because it is more socialist, and you get an annoying situation. Yes, Quebec is more socialist - it can afford to be, because the rest of us are paying for it, meaning the non-Quebec provinces can't afford the same programs!

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/11/04/equalization-payments-make-for-unequal-services-study/

Sure, Quebec isn't the only one in this pot - the Altantic Provinces are too - but they are (1) very small, and (2) not lecturing everyone about the superiority of their system.

[HVC]

That's bullshit.

You don't fund it. There is a long list of services that the Federal government doesn't provide in Quebec but the provincial government does.

The federal government is only giving the money it collected for those services back.

Soo, the federal government is collecting the tax for it, and the federal government giving that money to Quebec and telling them how to spend it.
Of course it is the federal government providing that service then.

thats the health transfer and social transfer, the equalization transfers are meant to ensure that provinces are fiscally balanced (the haves to the have nots).

[viper37]

I'm not saying they are "null and void", I'm merely pointing out that Quebec already has plenty of room to arrange programs as it sees fit: Canada is relatively decentralized, for a country, with robust provincial powers.

The Federal parliament can still declare a provincial law null&void, IIRC.  Same power as Queen had prior to 1982.
Mulcair talked about using it against Quebec's charter, IIRC.  Of course, that was one of the main goal of the PQ charter.

The Federal government his by no right forced to follow provincial laws, and the english minority of Quebec has been historically protected by the Federal while the French communities outside of Quebec have been left to fend for themselves.

The Federal government can create it's own program anywhere it sees fit.  If the Federal government wishes to transfer funds to provinces on the exclusive condition that they do not fund climate or evolution research, they could theoritically do so (though such an extreme example would certainly create an uproar). 

One recent exemple were the Millenium grants.  The Federal government, after cutting fund transfer to provinces decided to create it's own student grant program.  With a Red Maple leaf on the check, so as to promote canadian unity among students. Why not increase provincial transfers to education instead of half duplicating an existing system and giving roughtly the same amount to students regardless if they needed it or not?

The infamous sponsorship scandal.  Do you think our tax dollars were justly spent in this?

The flag scandal.  Quebec being inundated by Canadian flags on July 1st.  Really?  That was an efficient use of our money?