Scottish Independence

[Josquius]

There isnt much serious talk about the northern isles leaving (though there is some) but....the numbers for them breaking off and declaring independence make a lot more sense than for Scotland as a whole. And it would be sweet.

[Sheilbh]

Why?  Self-determination has little to do with history - it has to do with the desires of the population.  If Orcadians wish to remain as part of the UK, why shouldn't they?

National independence has a lot to do with history - as does the argument for Union.

It's a part of Scotland - and has been for about 600 years - which is the entity voting on independence. We can't start nibbling at that and pointing out borough councils that are less keen on independence any more than the Scots can start suggesting Berwick may like to join. This isn't an ethnic self-determination - like you'd perhaps get in Eastern Europe - but one of a historical nation choosing to withdraw from a union she entered with another.

As Jacob says it'd be in bad faith. If Scotland leave we want them to do well because Great Britain is too small for a zero sum game. There's no need to create a poisonous atmosphere that'll need to be extensively maintained.

[Admiral Yi]

How did the Orkneys become part of Scotland?

[Sheilbh]

There isnt much serious talk about the northern isles leaving (though there is some) but....the numbers for them breaking off and declaring independence make a lot more sense than for Scotland as a whole. And it would be sweet.

They get so much money from the centre and from the EU

I half-hope they embrace their Viking heritage more fully* and try and join Norway

* They're already pretty keen:

[The Brain]

How did the Orkneys become part of Scotland?

A dare.

[Barrister]

Why?  Self-determination has little to do with history - it has to do with the desires of the population.  If Orcadians wish to remain as part of the UK, why shouldn't they?

National independence has a lot to do with history - as does the argument for Union.

It's a part of Scotland - and has been for about 600 years - which is the entity voting on independence. We can't start nibbling at that and pointing out borough councils that are less keen on independence any more than the Scots can start suggesting Berwick may like to join. This isn't an ethnic self-determination - like you'd perhaps get in Eastern Europe - but one of a historical nation choosing to withdraw from a union she entered with another.

As Jacob says it'd be in bad faith. If Scotland leave we want them to do well because Great Britain is too small for a zero sum game. There's no need to create a poisonous atmosphere that'll need to be extensively maintained.

History plays into it because history influences people's sense of self-identity, there is no reason that Scotland's borders are any less negotiable than the UK's are.

If the people of Orkenys (or indeed Berwick) more closely identify as being either British or Scottish, when wouldn't that wish be respected?

Would it get messy?  Yes of course it would.  But that is always going to be the problem when breaking up a nation.  You can't ignore the democratic wishes of easily distinguishable geographic regions just because it is inconvenient.

[Sheilbh]

How did the Orkneys become part of Scotland?

Historically they were settled by Scottish tribes. Then they were annexed by the Norse and Orkney, Shetland and Caithness were part of the Duchy of Orkney. I think they were part of the dowry for Margaret of Denmark when she married one of the James's (currently a play about this-ish at the National).

And it's still slightly there. My family helped set up a Gaelic medium nursery school (now primary) in Caithness, where we lived, and while most people were supportive there was a vocal local community who opposed it on the grounds that they'd never spoke Gaelic there. There was a brief campaign for a Norwegian language nursery

[The Brain]

How many Gaelic mediums does a country need?

[Sheilbh]

History plays into it because history influences people's sense of self-identity, there is no reason that Scotland's borders are any less negotiable than the UK's are.

The UK is a union of two nations. It's always been negotiable between those two nations. If the far North really want to rejoin England then fine, but they can negotiate it with Edinburgh.

Would it get messy?  Yes of course it would.  But that is always going to be the problem when breaking up a nation.  You can't ignore the democratic wishes of easily distinguishable geographic regions just because it is inconvenient.

But as I say in my view this isn't about ethnic nationalism with little enclaves of Englishness (Aviemore in December) or Scottishness. It's a breakup of a country made up of two nations. That's how it's been understood from the start. If the intention was a council by council decision on nationality then that should've been said from the start.

Having said that I think it'd be mad if Quebec voted to leave to try and redefine Quebec. The side against independence lost and there's no point trying to unpick that.

[Admiral Yi]

Only vaguely related to the topic, is Sassenach (sp?) the Gaelic pronounciation of Saxon, or does it come from a different root?

[derspiess]

How did the Orkneys become part of Scotland?

Churchill transferred them to Scotland in recognition of Scotland's efforts during WWII.

[mongers]

Only vaguely related to the topic, is Sassenach (sp?) the Gaelic pronounciation of Saxon, or does it come from a different root?

Well it's in my Chambers dictionary as a word, derived from the Gaelic word and can mean Saxon, Englishman or Lowlander (Scot) .

[mongers]

Scotland divided.

Earlier Channel 4 news interviewed the clan chief of MacLaren, one of the oldest clans, he's pro-independence, his wife is adamantly No and they preceded to argue quite strongly on camera.
Of their five children (judging by the surnames from two marriages), two are voting no and three yes, the held similarly strong opinions on the issue.

[Razgovory]

Only vaguely related to the topic, is Sassenach (sp?) the Gaelic pronounciation of Saxon, or does it come from a different root?

I think it's ultimately derived from what ever the Saxons called themselves.  But those things are always complex.  Like the word "YorK" which probably came originally from some gaelic word and was then modified for Latin, then Old English, then Norse, then old English again, then Norman, and finally Modern English.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Only vaguely related to the topic, is Sassenach (sp?) the Gaelic pronounciation of Saxon, or does it come from a different root?

I think it's ultimately derived from what ever the Saxons called themselves.  But those things are always complex.  Like the word "YorK" which probably came originally from some gaelic word and was then modified for Latin, then Old English, then Norse, then old English again, then Norman, and finally Modern English.

iirc, the Latinised name fro York is Eburacum.
Aand again iirc (it's been a while since I studied Gallo-Roman settlements) placenames ending on "acum" are usually adapted from celtic and refer to a trading place or market place.
(a few others are Cortoriacum or Kortrijk/Courtrai, Bagacum Nerviorum or Beuken/Bavay, Camaracum or Kamerijk/Cambrai)
Assuming that the information isn't outdated completely of course