Staind singer stops concert to demand audience members stop ‘molesting’ teen

[The Brain]

I am unconvinced that we should send young women into a minefield just because the minefield really shouldn't be there.

[Valmy]

The difference here is that, for those who believe this is basically a cultural issue, imposing dress codes on women indirectly supports the very culture that encourages rape in the first place. For those who see rape as a crime akin to stealing, i.e. something everyone realizes is bad, but that some do anyway because they like to, dress codes and the like are merely sensible precautions, to avoid attracting attention from the bad guys.

Well I guess to me the culture is putting restrictions on the freedom of women, as if somehow it is their responsibility to protect the rapists.  The only people who should have restrictions on their freedom is rapists. 

And the problem is that the rapists are often flawed human beings who fucked up and not necessarily bad guys.  Then there is this weird cultural dynamic where somehow they get seen as the victims here.  That is fucked.  But that is not the only thing. 

The other part is making these sensible precautions rules and laws and putting social pressure on women to do these precautions.  Sure I want to lock up my shit but how fucked would it be if I got punished for not doing so or was scolded for tempting the goddamn thieves?  I mean how could the poor criminally minded stay on the straight and narrow with all those unlocked houses around to steal from?

Obviously going over to the frat party with just a thong and pasties on after consuming a bottle of vodka is a stupid life choice.  However the expectation is still that should somebody do that, no horrible crimes will be committed against her.  And if there are then somebody's ass should be locked up.

[derspiess]

I find this notion that you can just wag a finger, go tut-tut and tell a rapist not to rape laughable. It's just such a delusional naive white American college chick burgeois way of seeing the world. Or it's a doctrinaire feminist's peevish, grudging rancor against men. Either way, it's stupid, it's a dangerous world out there and it's up to you to protect yourself. The lack of imagination for criminality amazes even me, and I live in a pretty docile place.

I guess I must have a very criminal mind. 

I would think that teaching women to take common sense measures to avoid dangerous situations and to defend themselves if they get in a bad situation would be empowering and therefore a good thing from a feminist point of view.  But it seems patriarchal, to use their term, to ignore that and encourage women to think of themselves as helpless victims.

[Valmy]

I find this notion that you can just wag a finger, go tut-tut and tell a rapist not to rape laughable. It's just such a delusional naive white American college chick burgeois way of seeing the world. Or it's a doctrinaire feminist's peevish, grudging rancor against men. Either way, it's stupid, it's a dangerous world out there and it's up to you to protect yourself. The lack of imagination for criminality amazes even me, and I live in a pretty docile place.

I guess I must have a very criminal mind. 

I guess I like to think we are not subhuman monstrous scum by and large.  I think people should expect that if a woman wears a tight skirt dudes can act appropriately.  If he does not than that is on him.

But maybe I just have a grudging rancor against men for thinking we are human beings and not animals.

I find this notion people should be forced to accommodate criminals laughable as well.

[Valmy]

I would think that teaching women to take common sense measures to avoid dangerous situations and to defend themselves if they get in a bad situation would be empowering and therefore a good thing from a feminist point of view.  But it seems patriarchal, to use their term, to ignore that and encourage women to think of themselves as helpless victims.

Teaching?  Sure.  Forcing?  No.  The force and social pressure should be on criminals not law abiding citizens.

[Malthus]

The difference here is that, for those who believe this is basically a cultural issue, imposing dress codes on women indirectly supports the very culture that encourages rape in the first place. For those who see rape as a crime akin to stealing, i.e. something everyone realizes is bad, but that some do anyway because they like to, dress codes and the like are merely sensible precautions, to avoid attracting attention from the bad guys.

Well I guess to me the culture is putting restrictions on the freedom of women, as if somehow it is their responsibility to protect the rapists.  The only people who should have restrictions on their freedom is rapists. 

Agreed - but I think a more accurate description is "...it is theor responsibility to protect themselves from the rapists".

And the problem is that the rapists are often flawed human beings who fucked up and not necessarily bad guys.  Then there is this weird cultural dynamic where somehow they get seen as the victims here.  That is fucked.  But that is not the only thing. 

This is, in a nutshell, the "culture" theory: that it isn't simply an immoral choice, but a product of a culture that pushes men to be rapists. The other side sees them as bad guys, pure and simple. Isn't though seeing them as "often flawed human beings who fucked up and not necessarily bad guys" in a way seeing them as, in a way, the victims? Of a flawed culture?

The other part is making these sensible precautions rules and laws and putting social pressure on women to do these precautions.  Sure I want to lock up my shit but how fucked would it be if I got punished for not doing so or was scolded for tempting the goddamn thieves?  I mean how could the poor criminally minded stay on the straight and narrow with all those unlocked houses around to steal from?

I agree that punishing women for not taking precautions makes no sense. How often does that happen, though?

Obviously going over to the frat party with just a thong and pasties on after consuming a bottle of vodka is a stupid life choice.  However the expectation is still that should somebody do that, no horrible crimes will be committed against her.  And if there are then somebody's ass should be locked up.

Agreed - in fact, looking back on it, in HS we had parties that had mostly-naked women in them, plus copious drug and alcohol use by everyone, and no rapes ... but then, the guest list was carefully selected.  In fact, that's where I met my best friend - I was called on to paint her costume on at such a party.  That was one crazy night.

[jimmy olsen]

I agree that punishing women for not taking precautions makes no sense. How often does that happen, though?

Probably about 80-90% of the time. Do people just not read about rape trials?

[frunk]

These girls say, "Well, I should be able to get drunk at a fraternity party and go upstairs to a guy's room without anything happening."  And I say, "Oh, really?  And when you drive your car into New York City, do you leave your keys on the hood?"  My point is that if your car is stolen after you do something like that, yes, the police should pursue the thief and he should be punished.  But at the same time, the police – and I – have the right to say to you, "You stupid idiot, what the hell were you thinking?"

No question, there are people who act like idiots and are surprised when it goes wrong.  I'd never defend such behavior as being smart, or wise, or unrisky.  To me there's a big difference between passing out at a frat party and "dressing provocatively" being considered "leaving the car unlocked with the keys on the hood".

[Malthus]

I agree that punishing women for not taking precautions makes no sense. How often does that happen, though?

Probably about 80-90% of the time. Do people just not read about rape trials?

Uh, what exactly do you mean? That rapists are found not guilty 80-90% of the time because the victim failed to take precautions?

That sounds nuts to me.

[derspiess]

I agree that punishing women for not taking precautions makes no sense. How often does that happen, though?

Probably about 80-90% of the time. Do people just not read about rape trials?

This statistic pulled freshly from Tim's ass.

[Legbiter]

I find this notion people should be forced to accommodate criminals laughable as well.

[garbon]

These girls say, "Well, I should be able to get drunk at a fraternity party and go upstairs to a guy's room without anything happening."  And I say, "Oh, really?  And when you drive your car into New York City, do you leave your keys on the hood?"  My point is that if your car is stolen after you do something like that, yes, the police should pursue the thief and he should be punished.  But at the same time, the police – and I – have the right to say to you, "You stupid idiot, what the hell were you thinking?"

No question, there are people who act like idiots and are surprised when it goes wrong.  I'd never defend such behavior as being smart, or wise, or unrisky.  To me there's a big difference between passing out at a frat party and "dressing provocatively" being considered "leaving the car unlocked with the keys on the hood".

Agreed.

[CountDeMoney]

I fingerbanged a total stranger chick at the Chemlab/White Zombie show in '94.  Just had to throw that out there.

[garbon]

Obviously going over to the frat party with just a thong and pasties on after consuming a bottle of vodka is a stupid life choice.  However the expectation is still that should somebody do that, no horrible crimes will be committed against her.  And if there are then somebody's ass should be locked up.

Actually I think that gets murky. Then we can run into the issue of whether a crime was committed vs. someone regrets decisions they made.

[derspiess]

I fingerbanged a total stranger chick at the Chemlab/White Zombie show in '94.  Just had to throw that out there.

Did you ask for and receive explicit permission first?  And did you have her sign a release or anything?

Anyway that was a fun year, back when Rob Zombie was still cool.