Am I the only one pissed off by the SNP?

[Sheilbh]

Is he right about it or not? If he is wrong, then it is fearmongering. If he is right, he is only warning about facts.

My problem with the 'no' campaign is that they're too negative. And here they have a former British Prime Minister from Scotland looking like a pootling actuary. Unpublished statistics from the Registrar General will not save the union

[Valmy]

So we need an emotional appeal?  Like Scots, English, and Welshmen defeating Hitler together.

[Valmy]

For me there's two chunks of reasons. Firstly is the purely emotional side of things. I spent ten years growing up in Scotland. My brother was born in Scotland. I've got loads of memories of family holidays camping round the Highlands. Even in the past few years Scotland's the bit of the UK I visit the most, aside from Dorset where my mum and dad live.

Wait so you are an Irishman who grew up in Scotland and lives in England?  Sheilbh is Britain personified.

[Sheilbh]

So we need an emotional appeal?  Like Scots, English, and Welshmen defeating Hitler together.

Maybe not that, but something like that. Nations are emotional tribal things that are about our national stories. The SNP have a very clear vision of what Scotland should be. The unionists are saying they're not sure about that but the average elderly person would be 20p a week better off.

Imagine the founders still chatting about revenue and stamp duties in the declaration of independence, or if the Estates General spent their first year anatomising the accounts. When the argument is about whether you want your country to seize her destiny as an independent state or not, I'd suggest unfunded public pension liabilities is not the strongest to make.

[Sheilbh]

Wait so you are an Irishman who grew up in Scotland and lives in England?  Sheilbh is Britain personified.

I was born in Liverpool so I'm English born - but I do have Irish citizenship (I need to renew my passport actually now I'm stressing about the union and the EU). I also have Welsh and Manx grandparents. So yeah I am very British

[Valmy]

Imagine the founders still chatting about revenue and stamp duties in the declaration of independence, or if the Estates General spent their first year anatomising the accounts. When the argument is about whether you want your country to seize her destiny as an independent state or not, I'd suggest unfunded public pension liabilities is not the strongest to make.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We have determined we would save 2 pence a year on tea and tax duties a head.

We, therefore, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States.

[Valmy]

Wait so you are an Irishman who grew up in Scotland and lives in England?  Sheilbh is Britain personified.

I was born in Liverpool so I'm English born - but I do have Irish citizenship (I need to renew my passport actually now I'm stressing about the union and the EU). I also have Welsh and Manx grandparents. So yeah I am very British

I would say you are more British than the Queen but that is not too difficult.

But would Britain honestly do something as stupid as leave the EU?  Sir Humphrey would be outraged.

[Sheilbh]

But would Britain honestly do something as stupid as leave the EU?  Sir Humphrey would be outraged.

I don't think it's necessarily stupid. We'll get a referendum, I think that's inevitable. At the minute I'm more or less 50-50 myself.

Edit: And England is mildly more anti-European than Scotland. Currently I think the most likely outcome is that we stay in 45-55%, if Scotland left I'd possibly swap those figures. You could even end up with a situation where England voted to leave the EU (so won the referendum) but Scotland voted to stay (and lost)

I hate referendums

[Tamas]

But would Britain honestly do something as stupid as leave the EU?  Sir Humphrey would be outraged.

I don't think it's necessarily stupid. We'll get a referendum, I think that's inevitable. At the minute I'm more or less 50-50 myself.

Rational reasons against UK's EU membership are:


???

[alfred russel]

Rational reasons against UK's EU membership are:


???

Somewhere out there is an unemployed English gamer with an IT background saying, "They took our jobs!!!" 

[Sheilbh]

Rational reasons against UK's EU membership are:


???

I think this piece by Clive Crook is spot-on:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-05-14/u-k-exit-from-eu-may-really-happen
And towards the end of this piece too:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-02-27/will-britain-and-germany-get-a-divorce

Chaotic muddling through -- the characteristically European approach -- will be the way forward. To be clear, this needn't mean economic collapse or enormous political upheaval. Something less dramatic is more likely: With its fundamental defects unaddressed, the EU will stay prone to crisis and continue to underperform.

Whether Britain should remain a member of this chronically dysfunctional group is a close call. On the plus side, the U.K. opted out of the euro system, sparing itself the consequences of that egregious error. In addition, it has a lot to lose from quitting the union if the other members decide to punish the rebel, for instance by withdrawing its trade privileges. (Of course, that would be against the EU's interests too -- but that's a frail basis for optimism.)

Nonetheless, it's a close call because the long-term drift of political power in Europe is likely to be toward, not away from, Brussels, and that's something the British will resent. Historically, entrenched bureaucracies gather power rather than relinquish it. Also, further centralization -- "integration," as it's called -- is the natural implication of repeated ad hoc policy fixes, whether voters like it or not. If the Brits don't care for the EU today, they'll like it even less 10 years from now.

If the EU is no longer capable of standing back to ask where it's headed and whether it wants to go there -- and that's what Merkel said, in so many words -- it's moving in a direction that the U.K. won't like. At some point, the only remedy for irreconcilable differences is divorce.

[Valmy]

Rational reasons against UK's EU membership are:


???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIYP1ibYdZI

[derspiess]

I would say you are more British than the Queen but that is not too difficult.

I'm as British as Queen Victoria.

[Capetan Mihali]

Ed Millipede doesn't seem that bright.

Yeah, what do you think Sheilbh/other Britishers?  Is he competent?  Would he be competent as PM?

I suspect we are not going to find out,

Speaking of Ed Milliband not being bright and/or not winning... this may be old news, but I just read that he's hired David Axelrod as his adviser, presumably to propel him to Obama '08 style success.   What could go wrong?

[Sheilbh]

He's got Axelrod and Arnie Graf. Cameron's got Jim Messina and John Howard's old strategist Lynton Crosby. Nick Clegg's got the DA's Ryan Coetzee from South Africa.

British jobs for British political consultants