Am I the only one pissed off by the SNP?

[alfred russel]

My God those are horrible billboards.  I think only Arizona could get away with that here.  Well among the border states.  You could probably put that up in Tennessee or something.

Come on. In Georgia we had a candidate for governor that ran in the last election on an Arizona style immigration program and said the line in his ads "we need to take care of our own". That was the democrat. And he lost amid criticism that he was too soft on immigration.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/government/elections/georgia-elections/2010-10-26/barnes-targeted-immigration

[Valmy]

My God those are horrible billboards.  I think only Arizona could get away with that here.  Well among the border states.  You could probably put that up in Tennessee or something.

Come on. In Georgia we had a candidate for governor that ran in the last election on an Arizona style immigration program and said the line in his ads "we need to take care of our own". That was the democrat. And he lost amid criticism that he was too soft on immigration.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/government/elections/georgia-elections/2010-10-26/barnes-targeted-immigration

Yeah that was the reason for my edit.  Away from the border things are different.

[Viking]

But that's from 2001, prior to the EU expansion which saw the number of immigrants in Scotland double and has caused a lot of the English palpitations on immigration.

The percentage of people living in Scotland who are foreign born is about half the UK average at 6% but that's around the sort of number you get with many English regions.

yes and that makes scotland compatible to english regions as they were in 2001 before they too got immigration boosts from the eu. Scotland doesn't have equivalents like london and bradford etc.

[alfred russel]

Yeah that was the reason for my edit.  Away from the border things are different.

Sorry, didn't notice the edit.

But don't we just have like 4 border states? Cali, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas? 

[Valmy]

But don't we just have like 4 border states? Cali, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas? 

Until Canadians start sneaking into Montana, yes

Seriously though that Georgia shit is fucked up.  Do they really have that many illegal immigrants that this is an issue?  It is always amazing to me how people flip the fuck out about them when, here in Texas, we have shitloads of illegal immigrants and it does not really effect anything.  What is the big panic about?

[alfred russel]

Until Canadians start sneaking into Montana, yes

Seriously though that Georgia shit is fucked up.  Do they really have that many illegal immigrants that this is an issue?  It is always amazing to me how people flip the fuck out about them when, here in Texas, we have shitloads of illegal immigrants and it does not really effect anything.  What is the big panic about?

We have a lot of illegal immigrants. Especially before 2008.

Unlike a lot of the country, our draconian immigration laws seem to be doing better in the courts than say Arizona. Immigrants began leaving in large numbers. Farmers were like, "wft? Now we don't have a labor force." The governor said "no problem, I have a plan".

He had a plan. It was to send newly released convicts that couldn't find jobs to work as field hands in rural Georgia. Some news teams documented this. It was hilarious. At the beginning of the day, the prisoners were like, "this is great, I'm thankful for the opportunity, I'm glad someone is giving me a chance." By lunch they were like, "fuck this. I'm out of here." The farmers were like, "I'm supposed to pay these guys for a days work when they haven't done the work a normal guy gets done in a half hour? Fuck that."

[Valmy]

He had a plan. It was to send newly released convicts that couldn't find jobs to work as field hands in rural Georgia. Some news teams documented this. It was hilarious. At the beginning of the day, the prisoners were like, "this is great, I'm thankful for the opportunity, I'm glad someone is giving me a chance." By lunch they were like, "fuck this. I'm out of here." The farmers were like, "I'm supposed to pay these guys for a days work when they haven't done the work a normal guy gets done in a half hour? Fuck that."

Nothing demoralizing about being sent to Rural Georgia to pick cotton.  Nope.

Are those videos online?  They sound hilarious.

[alfred russel]

When I get home, I'll try to find one.

[Sheilbh]

What does 'rate of arrival' mean?  Rate of total immigrants to the UK?  Rate of immigrants versus total population of the country?

What I mean is if you look at the population who are foreign born and when they arrived then Scotland, Northern Ireland and the North-East have the highest rate arriving in the last 10 years (a huge chunk in 2004-7). It's part of the exceptional nature of immigration after EU expansion that previous immigrant groups have behaved like immigrants do all over the world and moved to where there's a pre-existing community.

The Eastern European migrants, exceptionally, went everywhere. Which is possibly why Ukip are doing so well in the polls it was far more visible.

You have stated an independent Kingdom of Scotland is a horrible idea, could you tell me why you believe that?  You have probably stated this before so sorry if that is annoying.

For me there's two chunks of reasons. Firstly is the purely emotional side of things. I spent ten years growing up in Scotland. My brother was born in Scotland. I've got loads of memories of family holidays camping round the Highlands. Even in the past few years Scotland's the bit of the UK I visit the most, aside from Dorset where my mum and dad live. So I feel a strong personal connection to Scotland and I hate the idea that this would somehow become another country for me and I wouldn't even qualify for Scottish citizenship. In addition to that I don't really have that sort of feeling for England (except for Liverpool and London). So I also hate the idea that I'd end up a citizen of the UK of England and Wales. They'd be buggering my current country too.

In addition to that, of course, is our three hundred years of history. We're the country of Rabbie Burns and Shakespeare, Hume and Mills, Stevenson and Brunel. We've fought wars together and built the welfare state together. It seems incredibly sad to abandon that heritage of what we've achieved together in favour of slightly smaller ambitions and expectations for the future. It seems like settling.

Secondly is more political. I worry about Scotland having to rejoin the EU without the UK opt-outs, so promising to join the Eurozone for example, and also that they've got a very good financial sector but they'd be fucked like Ireland if it weren't for the UK in 2008.

In terms of the UK I think without Scotland England will become more parochial. People moan about the SNP promising Irish style Celtic tiger economics and Scandinavian social democracy, which is fair. But there's a huge chunk of England that wants to reject the EU in favour of global buccaneering free trade while also wanting to effectively close our borders to all immigration. Which if anything is even less plausible. I think England, without Scotland, will be a more closed, insular and a less liberal place.

In addition to that I think England and Scotland together are able to do more on climate change, more in foreign and defence policy, better social welfare and a more solid and sustainable economy - we can buttress and strengthen each other and I genuinely believe the UK is greater than the sum of its parts.

Yeah we make it work with California's 38mil to Wyoming's 500k.

You've got 48 other states to help. If the USA was California, Oregon, New Mexico and Maine I think there'd be far more difficulties of what's democratic and legitimate.

yes and that makes scotland compatible to english regions as they were in 2001 before they too got immigration boosts from the eu. Scotland doesn't have equivalents like london and bradford etc.

I'm comparing 2011 census numbers. So Scotland's got 6% and most English regions have 5-8% in 2011 after they've all had the EU migrants.

My God those are horrible billboards.  I think only Arizona could get away with that here.  Well among the border states.  You could probably put that up in Tennessee or something.

I don't like them, but I'm not the target and I suspect they'll be very effective for the people Ukip are aiming them at. They've been helped by all the free publicity they've been given by outraged liberals which will just increase the sense, which Ukip love, that they say what the political class won't say.

[Sheilbh]

Meanwhile Gordon Brown enters the campaign with more doom-mongering about Scotland's pensions timebomb
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/21/scotland-independence-gordon-brown-pensions-timebomb

[Viking]

I'm comparing 2011 census numbers. So Scotland's got 6% and most English regions have 5-8% in 2011 after they've all had the EU migrants.

LONDON!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE

[Tamas]

I think England and Scotland together are able to do more on climate change

To be fair, I think they have exactly the same chances about that regardless of being together or separate. :p

[Sheilbh]

We can do more to reduce our emissions and more comfortably place the blame elsewhere.

[Valmy]

Meanwhile Gordon Brown enters the campaign with more doom-mongering about Scotland's pensions timebomb
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/21/scotland-independence-gordon-brown-pensions-timebomb

I thought Gordon Brown was supposed to use his vast popularity to lead the together cause to victory?

[Tamas]

Meanwhile Gordon Brown enters the campaign with more doom-mongering about Scotland's pensions timebomb
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/21/scotland-independence-gordon-brown-pensions-timebomb

Is he right about it or not? If he is wrong, then it is fearmongering. If he is right, he is only warning about facts.