Am I the only one pissed off by the SNP?

[Valmy]

The trouble with home rule is if you give the Scots all of those power do you still have Scottish MPs? What areas can they vote on? A government can (and did under the last Labour government) pass measures that only affect England with Scottish MPs even if a majority of English MPs vote against it. We don't have a federal system so it's difficult to work out.

Well you would have to.  So Constitutional issues would have to be sorted out.  As an American I think they should give the historic English provinces their own assemblies with a federal one in Westminster and then everybody would be electing three parliaments.

[Sheilbh]

I'm skeptical though that an effective connection can be made to the Jacobite rebellion and a 21st century referendum. Beyond of course their common thread of stupidity.

Part of the reason the referendum's this year is that it's the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn.

It is funny that I have read two Englishmen here being all "so what" about Scottish independence, while the two Scotts I have talked about it (admittedly both living in England) were rather agitated about how an utterly stupid idea it is

I think it's a dreadful idea, but I also think Scotland would be absolutely fine if they were to go independent and there's no point in arguing against it from a sort of doom-mongering point of view. They're a rich country with a solid economy and they'd be fine.

Having said that I'm more worried about England and have recently applied to get a new Irish passport, just in case

That reminds me, do the half million or so Scots living in the non-Scotland part of the UK get a say in this?

No. I think it would be incredibly difficult given that there's no such thing as 'Scottish citizenship' at the moment.

The 500 000 or so British citizens born elsewhere, living in Scotland can vote. So can Commonwealth or EU citizens who are resident in Scotland.

[Sheilbh]

Well you would have to.  So Constitutional issues would have to be sorted out.  As an American I think they should give the historic English provinces their own assemblies with a federal one in Westminster and then everybody would be electing three parliaments.

That was the last Labour government's idea. They proposed regional assemblies in England. They planned three referendums for them in the North-East, the North-West and Yorkshire and the Humber. In the one referendum they had in the North-East only about 20% voted yes. So the idea got shelved. Trouble is people don't feel 'North-Eastern' in the way they feel Scottish or English. Even the counties get their borders moved around as reorganisations of local government.

So in the US you have coherent states with identities which can work as a basis for a federal government. I don't think England has that, maybe some counties like Yorkshire but that's it. So it'd be like a federal government with a state the size of California and Illinois combined, plus Nevada, New Mexico and Alabama.

[Sheilbh]

These show the difference of view on immigration:

Roughly 60% of English people think it's a bad thing that people from outside the UK want to come and live here, roughly 60% of Scots think it's a good thing.

[celedhring]

Would a federal system with Wales/Northern Ireland/Scotland/England be politically feasible in order to avoid the West Lothian question (and thus make increased devolution easier)?

[Sheilbh]

Would a federal system with Wales/Northern Ireland/Scotland/England be politically feasible in order to avoid the West Lothian question (and thus make increased devolution easier)?

Maybe theoretically. But I don't see how you can make a federal system work when one member has a population of 55 million and the others have 5 million, 3 million and 2 million.

[Viking]

These show the difference of view on immigration:
Roughly 60% of English people think it's a bad thing that people from outside the UK want to come and live here, roughly 60% of Scots think it's a good thing.

That's because Immigrants aren't going to scotland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/html/overview.stm

[Sheilbh]

But that's from 2001, prior to the EU expansion which saw the number of immigrants in Scotland double and has caused a lot of the English palpitations on immigration.

The percentage of people living in Scotland who are foreign born is about half the UK average at 6% but that's around the sort of number you get with many English regions.

But as with everything you need to account for London which is 34% foreign born. Most English regions and Wales and Scotland are within 5-8% foreign born. London's at 34% and the South-East, East and West Midlands are around 10%.

And Scotland (and Northern Ireland, interestingly) have the highest rate of arrival (as a percentage of the foreign born population) in the last 10 years (since EU expansion).

I'm almost certain if you asked people in the South-West which is also 6% foreign born, or the North-East at 5% that question their results would be similar to the English not the Scottish. Especially as both areas are currently big targets for Ukip.

Edit: For example I think it's very unlikely posters 1 or 4 here would work in Scotland, while 2 and 3 could be used against Westminster:
http://www.ukip.org/ukip_national_billboard_campaign
And predictably those posters were attacked as bigoted. Which allowed Farage to claim that debate about this gets shut down and get lots of free publicity for them - ie exactly what he wanted.

[Valmy]

My God those are horrible billboards.  I think only Arizona could get away with that here.  Well among the border states.  You could probably put that up in Tennessee or something.

What does 'rate of arrival' mean?  Rate of total immigrants to the UK?  Rate of immigrants versus total population of the country?

You have stated an independent Kingdom of Scotland is a horrible idea, could you tell me why you believe that?  You have probably stated this before so sorry if that is annoying.

[Richard Hakluyt]

It is funny that I have read two Englishmen here being all "so what" about Scottish independence, while the two Scotts I have talked about it (admittedly both living in England) were rather agitated about how an utterly stupid idea it is

Yeah, the Scots I know who live in England are pretty annoyed about it too. They know they are Scots, have no intention of leaving England and are totally pissed off about their future pasports and citizenship.

[Valmy]

Yeah, the Scots I know who live in England are pretty annoyed about it too. They know they are Scots, have no intention of leaving England and are totally pissed off about their future pasports and citizenship.

The fact they have no say in it is pretty crap I must say.

[Valmy]

Maybe theoretically. But I don't see how you can make a federal system work when one member has a population of 55 million and the others have 5 million, 3 million and 2 million.

I don't see why it is more difficult to work than a centralized system.  The main country who would be screwed (well not really but in compared to their potential power) in that arrangement would be the big one.

[garbon]

Maybe theoretically. But I don't see how you can make a federal system work when one member has a population of 55 million and the others have 5 million, 3 million and 2 million.

I don't see why it is more difficult to work than a centralized system.  The main country who would be screwed (well not really but in compared to their potential power) in that arrangement would be the big one.

Yeah we make it work with California's 38mil to Wyoming's 500k.

[Tamas]

But that's from 2001, prior to the EU expansion which saw the number of immigrants in Scotland double and has caused a lot of the English palpitations on immigration.

The percentage of people living in Scotland who are foreign born is about half the UK average at 6% but that's around the sort of number you get with many English regions.

But as with everything you need to account for London which is 34% foreign born. Most English regions and Wales and Scotland are within 5-8% foreign born. London's at 34% and the South-East, East and West Midlands are around 10%.

And Scotland (and Northern Ireland, interestingly) have the highest rate of arrival (as a percentage of the foreign born population) in the last 10 years (since EU expansion).

I'm almost certain if you asked people in the South-West which is also 6% foreign born, or the North-East at 5% that question their results would be similar to the English not the Scottish. Especially as both areas are currently big targets for Ukip.

Edit: For example I think it's very unlikely posters 1 or 4 here would work in Scotland, while 2 and 3 could be used against Westminster:
http://www.ukip.org/ukip_national_billboard_campaign
And predictably those posters were attacked as bigoted. Which allowed Farage to claim that debate about this gets shut down and get lots of free publicity for them - ie exactly what he wanted.

holy shit my disdain for UKIP grows by the day

[Valmy]

holy shit my disdain for UKIP grows by the day

Yeah those are appalling.