Am I the only one pissed off by the SNP?

[The Brain]

It's clear who wears the pants in the relationship.

[alfred russel]

Reading stories like this just keeps reminding me of our situation in Quebec.

Our experience has been is that the "non" side is best articulated by people within Quebec.  The moment someone from outside Quebec would point out that "you know, maybe you won't get to use the loonie / stay in NAFTA / keep your current borders" the sovereignists would pounce.  They wait for stuff like that so they can rile up passions about the big, mean english-speakers.

In modern democracies like Canada or the UK there really isn't an economic reason for independence - it's all about emotion and passion (not that there's anything wrong with that), so of course the "oui" side will make emotive pitches.

Tyr is well within his rights to be pissed off by the SNP, but as a nation, you can't afford to.  Let the Scots have their referendum.  Don't threaten or bully them.  Let the negative consequences of independence be pointed out by other scots.  Do, however, feel free to make the emotional positive arguments for the union too.  There's over 300 years of union history too that has been almost overwhelmingly positive for scotland...

Abraham Lincoln took a different approach, and closed off debate in this country for good.

[derspiess]

So are the Tories hoping Scotland breaks away?  Seems like it would help them in the next election.

[Barrister]

Don't threaten or bully them.

Are you suggesting  that the Scottish are being threatened?  Seems  perfectly kosher to me  to correct a misstatement by the SNP.

"When we are independent the English will send each Scot a million pounds a year."

"Well, no."

Except it is seen as bullying.

Much better to get a scottish loyalist to make the same point.

[Malthus]

So what are the grievances of the Scots?

Edward I. 

He did seriously fuck things up.  Talk about a bull in a china shop.  Everybody was happy, Scotland got to pretend it was sovereign and the England got to pretend Scotland was its vassal and then Edward I had to go and wreck it all for the next four hundred years.  But people really need to get over that, it was over 700 years ago.

I suggest opening the crypt of Edward I, wiring his bones to an English main battle tank, and driving it into Glasgow - just like Edward would have wanted. That will rally the no side! 

It is said that as Edward I lay dying he asked for his heart to be taken to the Holy Land and for the flesh to be boiled from his body so his bones could lead the English army in battle against the Scots.

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/warsofindependence/deathofedwardi/index.asp

Anyway, that would be much more entertaining than "bullying" the Scots by mentioning that perhaps England will not pay the green energy subsidy.

[Admiral Yi]

Except it is seen as bullying.

Much better to get a scottish loyalist to make the same point.

The folks who are going to interpret a simple statement of fact by an Englishman boy as bullying are probably not going to be any more amenable to the same message from a Scot.

[citizen k]

... then the stupidity may be a wider problem then you have indicated.

It's a global phenomenon. 

[Barrister]

Except it is seen as bullying.

Much better to get a scottish loyalist to make the same point.

The folks who are going to interpret a simple statement of fact by an Englishman boy as bullying are probably not going to be any more amenable to the same message from a Scot.

I don't know what to tell you - that seems to be the lesson learned here in Quebec.

[Valmy]

Yeah BB I think the best thing the Tories can do is simply say how much they love Scotland and basically STFU beyond that.

[Barrister]

Yeah BB I think the best thing the Tories can do is simply say how much they love Scotland and basically STFU beyond that.

Publicly.

Behinds the scenes they better be helping to organize the "no" side.

[viper37]

Kind of hard to win an argument against sunshine and lollipops when you cannot even point out how the status quo benefits the other party without being stupid.

If that were the case, every country in the world would have a communist government.

[celedhring]

Kind of hard to win an argument against sunshine and lollipops when you cannot even point out how the status quo benefits the other party without being stupid.

If that were the case, every country in the world would have a communist government.

Well, we have several examples of communism failing to provide the sunshine and lollipops to point to, so it's easy to make that argument in concrete terms.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't know what to tell you - that seems to be the lesson learned here in Quebec.

Can you give me a concrete example?

[Sheilbh]

The trouble is , no is by its very nature a negative position.

Yeah. But each of those examples could be spun in a far more positive way. Look how much better our infrastructure together can be, look how much more able we are to reduce emissions - as opposed to 'leave and your infrastructure will be shit and smoggy'.

The SNP want a change where they promise all sorts of lovely things, its the duty of those opposing this to point out why its wrong. True that positive things appeal to people more, but you'd think with a serious decision like this it would be logic that would dominate.

Logic dominates nothing except our after-the-fact rationalisations of our gut instincts.

Its just so annoying that there aren't any talented politicians in Scotland able to jump on the SNPs shallow transparent politics.

This is a problem. Too many Scottish Labour and Lib Dem politicians would rather be in the shadow cabinet at Westminster than actual power in Holyrood. It's a shame and if they don't fix it they might well end up in Holyrood anyway.

Well, given the prescedent set by the AV referendum.....

Given the Ukip surge there's an irony that the Tories would probably benefit most from AV and could be most hurt by FPTP

Tyr is well within his rights to be pissed off by the SNP, but as a nation, you can't afford to.  Let the Scots have their referendum.  Don't threaten or bully them.  Let the negative consequences of independence be pointed out by other scots.  Do, however, feel free to make the emotional positive arguments for the union too.  There's over 300 years of union history too that has been almost overwhelmingly positive for scotland...

Exactly. The best negative points won't come from Westminster politicians - especially some rather well-fed Southern Tories whose personality doesn't even work in the North of England far less Scotland. I think Mark Carney as Governor of the Bank of England was very effective in simply laying out the BofE's view on Sterling union and I think the European Commission have been effective saying, chances are, Scotland would leave the EU and have to re-apply.

Having said all that I am amazed at the way that Westminster doesn't seem to care at the minute. It's total indifference. It's really baffling because I think Cameron's an absolute unionist and I think he doesn't want to go down in history as the Conservative and Unionist Prime Minister who lost Scotland, but I can't think of a thing he's done. In my view he should be up there every other weekend just making it clear to Scotland that it matters for us to that they stay, that we want them to stay. Because ultimately this affects our country too, but Westminster seems absurdly placid about it.

On the other hand Ed Miliband should probably sit this out. This is a genuine quote from his speech at the Scottish Labour Conference:

Almost every family in Britain has a special story about their connection with Scotland.

This is mine.

My Dad came to Britain as a refugee from Belgium, fleeing from the Nazis.

He wanted to fight Fascism so he joined the Royal Navy.

Seventy years ago, he was stationed just 30 miles from here in Inverkeithing.

Where I was yesterday.

So are the Tories hoping Scotland breaks away?  Seems like it would help them in the next election.

Some Tory donors are. Personally I think they should be told if they want an independent Scotland they should probably stop backing the Conservative and Unionist Party

Having said that the Scottish Tories have started to impress me a little bit.

The folks who are going to interpret a simple statement of fact by an Englishman boy as bullying are probably not going to be any more amenable to the same message from a Scot.

The medium is the message. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Manchin could say exactly the same thing and I bet they'd get a different response in their respective home states.

Behinds the scenes they better be helping to organize the "no" side.

Labour are very unhappy that they doing the organising and lots of the work, which is understandable because their voters will decide the referendum, on the 'no' campaign, but don't feel the Tories are even helping contribute to the funds that much. As I say there are Tory donors who are donating explicitly on the condition that their money won't go to the 'no' campaign

[Ed Anger]

Ed Millipede doesn't seem that bright.