Am I the only one pissed off by the SNP?

[Valmy]

Unfortunately, like many such votes, there will be repeated referenda until there is a yes vote, but little option for reunification.

Can they do that?  I mean national self determination is already a sham and a flawed principle but that just takes the absurdity to a new level.

[Ed Anger]

What's the verdict on the sustainability of an independent Scotland?

All I know is my gut says maybe.

[The Brain]

What's the verdict on the sustainability of an independent Scotland?

All I know is my gut says maybe.

Turns out the guy is gay!

[The Minsky Moment]

Given the level of support Salmond attracts despite the number of times his statements and assumptions have been called into question (or revealed to be outright lies) one has to consider the possibility that a large number of Scots are simply "stupid".

No doubt explaining their stupidity will prompt them to vote to keep the union.
If the thrust of the pro-union argument is along the lines of "vote no or we will take away your green energy subsidies," then the stupidity may be a wider problem then you have indicated.

[Valmy]

All you have is the status quo while the independence douches can promise the moon and the sky.  Kind of hard to win an argument against sunshine and lollipops when you cannot even point out how the status quo benefits the other party without being stupid.

[Josquius]

Given the level of support Salmond attracts despite the number of times his statements and assumptions have been called into question (or revealed to be outright lies) one has to consider the possibility that a large number of Scots are simply "stupid".

Well, given the prescedent set by the AV referendum.....

[grumbler]

No doubt explaining their stupidity will prompt them to vote to keep the union.
If the thrust of the pro-union argument is along the lines of "vote no or we will take away your green energy subsidies," then the stupidity may be a wider problem then you have indicated.

Indeed., though the stupidity isn't expressed the way the yes types indicate.  The stupidity comes from insisting that all unpalatible truths are "threats."

[Barrister]

Reading stories like this just keeps reminding me of our situation in Quebec.

Our experience has been is that the "non" side is best articulated by people within Quebec.  The moment someone from outside Quebec would point out that "you know, maybe you won't get to use the loonie / stay in NAFTA / keep your current borders" the sovereignists would pounce.  They wait for stuff like that so they can rile up passions about the big, mean english-speakers.

In modern democracies like Canada or the UK there really isn't an economic reason for independence - it's all about emotion and passion (not that there's anything wrong with that), so of course the "oui" side will make emotive pitches.

Tyr is well within his rights to be pissed off by the SNP, but as a nation, you can't afford to.  Let the Scots have their referendum.  Don't threaten or bully them.  Let the negative consequences of independence be pointed out by other scots.  Do, however, feel free to make the emotional positive arguments for the union too.  There's over 300 years of union history too that has been almost overwhelmingly positive for scotland...

[Valmy]

Well the Lowland Scots anyway.

The Scots seem to have a horrible sense of their own history, though that might be unfair since all I generally get is snippets and their history is almost absurdly complicated and Byzantine.  I saw a documentary and read a book about Clan Donald and in both sources there were all these stupid statements concerning Clan Donald's traditional attempts to leverage the English and Scottish crowns against each other.  'Why would Clan Donald ally with their enemies the vile English against the Scottish Kings who were all goodness and light?'  Oh for fucksake. 

[Admiral Yi]

Don't threaten or bully them.

Are you suggesting  that the Scottish are being threatened?  Seems  perfectly kosher to me  to correct a misstatement by the SNP.

"When we are independent the English will send each Scot a million pounds a year."

"Well, no."

[Monoriu]

So what are the grievances of the Scots?

[Valmy]

So what are the grievances of the Scots?

From what I gather:

1. The English tend to vote more right wing than they do. 

2. London tends to dominate the United Kingdom and its interests tend to dominate the rest of it.

3. General nationalist blahblah.

Independence would get the Tories out of Scotland sure.  I get the second one but I do not think independence will make this problem better, London still dominates a lot of what goes on in Ireland and sucks talented Irish people into it.  I think it is best for Scotland to be able to continue to dictate to Westminster to the extent it can and play for more autonomy to correct the first grievance.  The third is the mojo the SNP needs to capitalize on in order to win.

[The Brain]

Will the French take them back as allies against England?

[Malthus]

So what are the grievances of the Scots?

Edward I. 

[Valmy]

So what are the grievances of the Scots?

Edward I. 

He did seriously fuck things up.  Talk about a bull in a china shop.  Everybody was happy, Scotland got to pretend it was sovereign and the England got to pretend Scotland was its vassal and then Edward I had to go and wreck it all for the next four hundred years.  But people really need to get over that, it was over 700 years ago.