How many people in Quebec are like Viper and Grallon?

[merithyn]

Naturally we wouldn't have to go through all these legal hooplas if those who governed had had the courage to deal with the problem at its source: the french-speaking peoples of Lower Canada.

Well, you would all be Americans by now, and some of your former compatriots did not like that idea at all, so they gave some token rights to francophone, making them believe they would build a better country than the savages living down south.  We did make something different, but the jury is still on if it's better or not.

Max is an American.

Technically, he's both.

[merithyn]

It's always the French speaking western people who have a bug about language and other cultures. Quebec, France, the Walloons. Wonder why that is.

To be fair we also have bigots as Viper likes to point out as twisted justification for his behavior. Its just that no one sensible trucks with them.

yes, but those bigots don't get national and legislative support.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/25/ariz-senators-immigration-town-hall/2697087/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manitoba_Schools_Question#Abolition_of_French_as_an_Official_Language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement_%281955%E2%80%9368%29

Today. He meant today.

[viper37]

I'm actually in favour of it, I think. My point is Franco-Canada only exists because of an official multicultural policy that was not common in its time.

I understood your point, but it is wrong.  Multiculturalism was a policy devised by Canada to ignore its French-citizens demands by drowning them in the mass and making all cultures equals, instead of having the concept of 2 founding nations as the francophones always believed.

French got rights whenever America was a threat.  In 1775, we were given the Quebec Act, making us officiall citizens of the British Empire with full rights, instead of half slaves with barely no rights.  Those rights were only partially respected over the years, and as the American threat diminished rapidly after the war of 1812, they were totally renegated by the Act of Union and Quebec had to pay English Canada's debt.
Toward the end of the US Civil War, when there were constant threats of US invasion, were the British were tired of defending the colony and when the Fenians did invade Canada, when it was clear that without Quebec all British colonies would become American States, than we got serious about discussing the creation of a country with theoritical full rights to french speaking citizens and a semi-official bilingualism occured.

Between then an the 70s, immigration wasn't really an issue, the few immigrants we had came from the French speaking part of Europe, and there were no guiding principles from the Federal gov to the effect that speaking French in Canada wasn't a necessity.  It changed with Trudeau coming to power, considering everyone in Quebec to be semi-intelligent cave men, barely able to talk.  I think only the Americans were worst than Quebecers in his eyes.

[crazy canuck]

It's always the French speaking western people who have a bug about language and other cultures. Quebec, France, the Walloons. Wonder why that is.

To be fair we also have bigots as Viper likes to point out as twisted justification for his behavior. Its just that no one sensible trucks with them.

yes, but those bigots don't get national and legislative support.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/25/ariz-senators-immigration-town-hall/2697087/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manitoba_Schools_Question#Abolition_of_French_as_an_Official_Language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement_%281955%E2%80%9368%29

Today. He meant today.

Heh, I thought he was listing all the reasons we now know governments should not engage in this kind of behaviour.

[merithyn]

Today. He meant today.

Heh, I thought he was listing all the reasons we now know governments should not engage in this kind of behaviour.

That works, too.

[Maximus]

Multiculturalism was a policy devised by Canada to ignore its French-citizens demands by drowning them in the mass and making all cultures equals, instead of having the concept of 2 founding nations as the francophones always believed.

I realize that is the line you are supposed to parrot, but allowing french to remain as official language is multiculturalism too. Once you (rightly) discard the nationalist notion that each country can only have one official culture it makes no sense to stop on the notion that a country can have only two official cultures.

[viper37]

It's always the French speaking western people who have a bug about language and other cultures. Quebec, France, the Walloons. Wonder why that is.

To be fair we also have bigots as Viper likes to point out as twisted justification for his behavior. Its just that no one sensible trucks with them.

yes, but those bigots don't get national and legislative support.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/25/ariz-senators-immigration-town-hall/2697087/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_barrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manitoba_Schools_Question#Abolition_of_French_as_an_Official_Language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Civil_Rights_Movement_%281955%E2%80%9368%29

Today. He meant today.

some of these still have effect today.  The Southern US States switched to Republican votes after the Civil Rights movement, never forgiving the Democrats.  We had a news piece on this some time ago.

The indian removal act still has consequences, in US & Canada.  Indians still have to live in reservations or lose their indian status. In Canada, if they live the reservation and marry a white woman, they can,t come back to their reservation, among other things.  I doubt things are better in the US.

Barring French education has had for consequence than there aren't many French people outside of Quebec today, so it's a good excuse for many provinces to reduce services to their french speaking population (see British Columbia recently).

Another example, in Canada's dearest province, would be this one:
http://www.standard-freeholder.com/2012/03/03/protesters-rally-over-hospitals-language-hiring-policy
Requiring bilingual applicant is bad.  Having French above English is bad:

Spokesperson Beth Trudeau called attention to the placement of French above English on signs along highways in Eastern Ontario. "That illusion creates that feeling that I am in the minority and I should not speak up," she said.

This is multi-culturalism for the Canadians.  English predominant = Multicularlism.  French predominant = racism.

And this organization here:
http://languagefairness.net/
The tone is very similar to what you'll hear from KKK and other extreme right groups.  Except the target is French speaking people with "too much power".  Same discourse as the Reform Party, now merged into the Conservative Party of Canada and still an influent wing in the party.

Again, this is alright for Canada.  English only is ok.  English first is ok.  English bigger is ok.  This is bilinguism for most of Canada.  And it is a consequence of past decisions.

[viper37]

I realize that is the line you are supposed to parrot, but allowing french to remain as official language is multiculturalism too. Once you (rightly) discard the nationalist notion that each country can only have one official culture it makes no sense to stop on the notion that a country can have only two official cultures.

As we see in Canada, having more than one official culture clearly doesn't work. English Canadians don't want anything to do with French, in Quebec english speakers physically isolate themselves from the french speaking riff-raff, in western provinces they drag their feet until there's a court order (and even then), in Quebec many don't want a single word of English everywhere...

Imho, Quebec will have no choice but to assimilate to the anglo-saxon culture or leave the country.  There's simply no future for a French speaking province in Canada, and nothing I've read here has convinced me that I am wrong, even if I don't consider every single one of you to be a racist.  But that is not for today.

[Maximus]

As we see in Canada, having more than one official culture clearly doesn't work. English Canadians don't want anything to do with French

That is incorrect

[merithyn]

As we see in Canada, having more than one official culture clearly doesn't work. English Canadians don't want anything to do with French, in Quebec english speakers physically isolate themselves from the french speaking riff-raff, in western provinces they drag their feet until there's a court order (and even then), in Quebec many don't want a single word of English everywhere...

Imho, Quebec will have no choice but to assimilate to the anglo-saxon culture or leave the country.  There's simply no future for a French speaking province in Canada, and nothing I've read here has convinced me that I am wrong, even if I don't consider every single one of you to be a racist.  But that is not for today.

That's 'cause, as we see in this thread, you all are assholes. 

[crazy canuck]

As we see in Canada, having more than one official culture clearly doesn't work. English Canadians don't want anything to do with French

That is incorrect

Dont burst the bubble.  Creating and us vs them mentality is required.

[Barrister]

The indian removal act still has consequences, in US & Canada.  Indians still have to live in reservations or lose their indian status. In Canada, if they live the reservation and marry a white woman, they can,t come back to their reservation, among other things.  I doubt things are better in the US.

As an aside, the section bolded has nothing to do with the Indian Act.  Individual bands control their own housing policy.  So what many individual bands have said is that band housing is for band members only, and if someone has a white partner they will not be allowed to live in band housing.

Another example, in Canada's dearest province, would be this one:
http://www.standard-freeholder.com/2012/03/03/protesters-rally-over-hospitals-language-hiring-policy
Requiring bilingual applicant is bad.  Having French above English is bad:

Spokesperson Beth Trudeau called attention to the placement of French above English on signs along highways in Eastern Ontario. "That illusion creates that feeling that I am in the minority and I should not speak up," she said.

This is multi-culturalism for the Canadians.  English predominant = Multicularlism.  French predominant = racism.

And this organization here:
http://languagefairness.net/
The tone is very similar to what you'll hear from KKK and other extreme right groups.  Except the target is French speaking people with "too much power".  Same discourse as the Reform Party, now merged into the Conservative Party of Canada and still an influent wing in the party.

Again, this is alright for Canada.  English only is ok.  English first is ok.  English bigger is ok.  This is bilinguism for most of Canada.  And it is a consequence of past decisions.

Wow - you're really getting yourself worked up over staffing policy at the local hospital in Cornwall, Ontario?  Really?

The actual article does contain the quote you mentioned, which seems silly.  The rest of the article talks about requiring nurses to be bilingual.  Whether they're correct or not they do have a point.  Requiring bilingual nurses means unilingual people can't work there, and in a tight job market for nurses might make it hard to attract and keep nurses.

Now maybe that's just the price you have to pay in order to have a bilingual hospital, but it's not as silly as complaining about the order on highway signs.

[Ideologue]

Because it undermines the most important value of Quebec society, the equality between men & women.

No? Does BC have that?

BC has what everyone else has - reasonable accomodation.

That's wholly unreasonable accomodation.  That's insane levels of accomodation.  You tried that in America, you'd get your ass kicked, man.

Maybe you guys aren't so great after all.  Another hero has feet of clay.

Dude. The issue was (surprise!) blown waaaaay out of proportion.

The true story is that a bunch of Hassids asked the YMCA to tint its windows so as not to 'distract' their students next door, and they initially said yes; them members of the YMCA complained, and the Y changed its decision to "no".

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2007/03/19/qc-ymcawindows20070318.html

Note that this had exactly nothing to do with the government, human rights tribunals, or anything - it was a private decision made by an organization in response to a request - which, ultimately, they refused because their members found it obnoxious. The system ... works? 

Oh, well, nevermind.  I was just going by what Fox said since CC didn't contradict him.

What about the Orthodox Jews and the female clerks thing?

[Malthus]

Oh, well, nevermind.  I was just going by what Fox said since CC didn't contradict him.

What about the Orthodox Jews and the female clerks thing?

I have no idea. I chose the example that was easy to google, to see what the actual story was.

Finding it was bullshit, I didn't bother with the other one.

[crazy canuck]

Oh, well, nevermind.  I was just going by what Fox said since CC didn't contradict him.

Wait, unless I contract every stupid thing said in this thread you take it as truth?