How many people in Quebec are like Viper and Grallon?

[Barrister]

I'm ok with no sign of religion to public employees.

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

[Malthus]

But the requests was made.

I hate to be difficult - but so the fuck what?

Is "making requests" something you need to regulate now? Be saved from the horrors of ... people having the balls to politely ask for stuff?! The horror! The horror! 

When religious groups are concern? I'd say yes.

And I'd say that's nuts.

Who cares whether the group simply asking for stuff is a "religious" one or not? They aren't demanding stuff as a legal right, so it isn't an issue.

Oh, and do you remember what the term "YMCA" stands for? "Young Men's Christian Association". The horror! 

[Berkut]

How would one go about legislating away private groups ability to ask other private groups to do things, religious or otherwise?

This might be one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard of - I keep thinking I must be missing something.

[Grey Fox]

I'm ok with no sign of religion to public employees.

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

I don't know how to rationilize it, nor how to write out good compelling argument why that would be good idea.

But, in a general principal way, I am always in the favor of LESS religion in every sphere of society.

[Malthus]

How would one go about legislating away private groups ability to ask other private groups to do things, religious or otherwise?

This might be one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard of - I keep thinking I must be missing something.

Actually, the Quebec legislation isn't (as far as I know) actually intended to legislate away the ability of religious groups to ask for stuff. They will still be just as able to ask for stuff as before.

Rather, the supporters of the legislation are using the fact that religious groups have in the past asked for stuff as proof that religious folks are a serious problem with Canadian society, which needs "fixing" by legislation harrasing such folks over what they wear.

I know this argument lacks somewhat in logic, but there it is.

[Razgovory]

Because it undermines the most important value of Quebec society, the equality between men & women.

No? Does BC have that?

I thought the most important value was speaking French and maintaining French culture.  Has Quebec always had equality between men and woman?

[Razgovory]

I'm ok with no sign of religion to public employees.

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

I don't know how to rationilize it, nor how to write out good compelling argument why that would be good idea.

But, in a general principal way, I am always in the favor of LESS religion in every sphere of society.

Even if it tramples human rights?

[merithyn]

But the requests was made.

I hate to be difficult - but so the fuck what?

Is "making requests" something you need to regulate now? Be saved from the horrors of ... people having the balls to politely ask for stuff?! The horror! The horror! 

When religious groups are concern? I'd say yes.

Wow. That's.... fucked up. Religious groups are organizations of like-minded people. That's it. Are you then going to legislate it so that Mensa can't request anything? Or a private university?

[merithyn]

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

I don't know how to rationilize it, nor how to write out good compelling argument why that would be good idea.

But, in a general principal way, I am always in the favor of LESS religion in every sphere of society.

Because there isn't a good compelling argument why that would be a good idea.

You are welcome to choose for yourself to have less religion in your life. You do not, however, get to choose for OTHERS how much religion they have in THEIR lives. That's crossing a line that just shouldn't be crossed. So long as what they do does not hinder or endanger others, you should really be keeping yourself to yourself on this one.

[viper37]

What I want to know, are there enough people in Quebec that think like Grallon to make the Charter of Values politically saleable in Quebec?

I knew it would be brought here.

It's hard to tell if it's politically saleable, as we have yet to see what is it they are actually proposing.  Lots of things have surface in the media.  The PQ did not deny or confirm anything at first, then hinted at something big.

All the while, speculation goes on.  Opponents of the PQ call them racists, nazis, as usual.  PQ supporters call them brave heroes, defenders of our values.

We'll know when it comes.  Then, I'll see if it's good or bad.

Imho, the PQ is just appealing to the hard line extremists, the blue-necks of the province.  They know it won't pass, they know it will be rejected by all opposition party, they know the majority of the population will most likely be against them, but they need that tiny minority's support if they hope to cling to at least official opposition status at the next election.  They just need a few more votes in some critical ridings to get a dozen more MPs.

In the end, what we will get won't be much more different than what the Conservatives did at the Federal level.

Now, what I want, is simply to stop accepting every single weird idea just because it's supposedly freedom of religion.
No knife in school, no religious education where creationism is thought, no accomodating someone who doesn't want a female doctor or clerk.  We wouldn't accomodate someone who doesn't want a black gay doctor to treat him at the ER, so this is nothing different.

As for religious symbols, well, the state should be neutral and not take any part in the religion of its employees.  I'll clash with most people, including BB (sorry), but I still believe religion should be a private thing and has no place in the public sphere.  Government employees, theoritically, are forbidden to do any politics, wear any political symbols (say, a Liberal party pin, or a Che t-shirt I guess ).  In practice, we all know many Federal employees actively support the Liberal Party of Quebec and Canada, particularly in the Ottawa-Gatineau area and do it on their work time (Chuck Guitté wasn't alone, you know).  But in theory, such things are forbidden. 

So I don't really see a difference between politics and religion.  I don't mind someone working in his office, mostly alone, wearing an hijab, a cross, kipa, kirpan, whatever, but imho, when it comes to public, the face of the government should be religion-neutral.

And of course, no face covering while in the street, or driving, or flying.  The message must be clear if we don't want anymore honor crimes like the Shaffia.

[viper37]

You are welcome to choose for yourself to have less religion in your life. You do not, however, get to choose for OTHERS how much religion they have in THEIR lives. That's crossing a line that just shouldn't be crossed. So long as what they do does not hinder or endanger others, you should really be keeping yourself to yourself on this one.

but if they impose their religion on me by requiring a prayer before any event, how are they not choosing for me?

[Grey Fox]

Why?  Why is this a good idea?

I don't know how to rationilize it, nor how to write out good compelling argument why that would be good idea.

But, in a general principal way, I am always in the favor of LESS religion in every sphere of society.

Because there isn't a good compelling argument why that would be a good idea.

You are welcome to choose for yourself to have less religion in your life. You do not, however, get to choose for OTHERS how much religion they have in THEIR lives. That's crossing a line that just shouldn't be crossed. So long as what they do does not hinder or endanger others, you should really be keeping yourself to yourself on this one.

Yes, we are trying to define what is and is not hinder.

I don't get to pick anything because if I did you wouldn't be happy. But as a society, we might or not, choose to do so. It's the Quebec the Quiet revolution built, secular society, and no one wants to go back to the Great Darkness.

[crazy canuck]

That has nothing to do with it. Don't be a viper/Liberal party member & bring everything back to that.

You dont see at least some link between the separatist concern about their vote being diluted away by immigrants coming to the Province and a piece of legislation that targets the beliefs of immigrants who separatists dont want to attract to the Province?

[merithyn]

You are welcome to choose for yourself to have less religion in your life. You do not, however, get to choose for OTHERS how much religion they have in THEIR lives. That's crossing a line that just shouldn't be crossed. So long as what they do does not hinder or endanger others, you should really be keeping yourself to yourself on this one.

but if they impose their religion on me by requiring a prayer before any event, how are they not choosing for me?

How is their prayer harming you in any way? So you stand there for a few minutes listening to what you term as dribble, and then move on. It's no different than listening to a speech that you think is a waste of time before an event.

You guys attach far too much to the term "religion" as an excuse to ban things. If I wear a head-scarf to keep my hair in place - or because I don't want to brush it that day - will you then forbid me from doing so because of a religion elsewhere that attributes significance to doing so? I have a lovely gold necklace that I love, that happens to have a cross on it along with some other geometric symbols. Will I be forbidden from wearing it to work simply because of the cross on it? What if I prefer a female doctor in the ER to deal with a rape? Will that be forbidden to? Or is only a preference based on religion that offends your delicate sensibilities?

So long as my actions do not impinge on you or yours, then the government has no right to dictate to me what I can or cannot do.

[Grey Fox]

That has nothing to do with it. Don't be a viper/Liberal party member & bring everything back to that.

You dont see at least some link between the separatist concern about their vote being diluted away by immigrants coming to the Province and a piece of legislation that targets the beliefs of immigrants who separatists dont want to attract to the Province?

Yes, viper.