25 years old and deep in debt

[Jacob]

You are not I think getting my point. I'm arguing why actual, unbiased statistics are important for framing public policy ... and why advocates quite naturally tend to inflate them.

Say we have public policy issues A, B and C. If you advocate for issue A, you would quite naturally want the public to believe that issue A is a more serious problem than B or C, so as to get what you consider the necessary level of public support behind the effort to eradicate problem A.

Thing is, those advocating for issues B and C are doing the same ...

That's great. You're not getting my point.

But yeah, I agree that unbiased statistics are important for framing public policy

In some cases, credible and useful statistics are harder to come by - i.e. do we base public policy on rape and sexual behaviour on convicted sex offences? On cases reported to law enforcement?

However, I wasn't talking about public policy, I was talking about individual attitudes, experiences, and behaviour.

[Valmy]

Unwanted sexual touching: During the past 12 months, has anyone ever touched you against
your will in any sexual way? By this I mean anything from unwanted touching or grabbing, to
kissing or fondling.

Well geez.  That is sure broad.

[Barrister]

Yes.  Without any doubt.  Sexual assault is a sex act without consent.  Sarah did not consent.

Do you have to get a verbal "yes" before you proceed? 

If you've gotten a verbal "no", then absolutely you'd better get a verbal "yes" before proceeding.

Look - there are some grey areas here.  If you're told "well I have a headache", or "I'm feeling tired", then while it would still be without consent, you may have an 'honest but mistaken belief in consent'.

But as they say, "no means no".

[Valmy]

2. Pursuing personal/professional development and good works attracts women on its own.

Wow it does?  That must be nice.

[garbon]

Is it a shitty situation? Yes, it is.

Is it though? I have to wonder in what Berk highlighted if a bigger issue would be people telling her its shitty and that it's sexual assault/rape. What would really just be an unfortunate bit of sex could be spun into a traumatic event but I'm not sure why on the measure it'd be best to take it as such.

Because people love drama.

The problem is that such a) can scar people over what was simply an unfortunate sexual encounter / poor decision making and b) makes it terrifying to ever engage in sex as everyone has to come out of the sexual encounter happy or it's possible that it'll be labeled sexual assault/rape.

[Jacob]

Is it though? I have to wonder in what Berk highlighted if a bigger issue would be people telling her its shitty and that it's sexual assault/rape. What would really just be an unfortunate bit of sex could be spun into a traumatic event but I'm not sure why on the measure it'd be best to take it as such.

In my limited observation, more people tend to want to spin sexual assault/ rape as "an unfortunate bit of sex" than the other way, including the victims. Most people don't want to be victims.

[Barrister]

Reminds me of this list of "how to avoid rape" tips I saw recently:

1. Don't put drugs in women's drinks.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don't rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman's home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don't forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don't pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don't communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

You know, shit like this pisses me off.

No, not every man is a potential rapist.

I'm all for better education about what consent actually means, and about teaching boundaries.  But if you take the attitude that every man is a potential rapist you're just going to tune out the messenger.

[Barrister]

I am never going to allow myself to be alone with a woman ever again. There has to be a witness to my innocence. Also, I am going to require my wife to sign a release form every night before entering the bedroom.

Although I'll tell you - I do not meet sexual assault victims alone.  Ever.  It's always in a public place, or with a witness present.

[garbon]

Is it though? I have to wonder in what Berk highlighted if a bigger issue would be people telling her its shitty and that it's sexual assault/rape. What would really just be an unfortunate bit of sex could be spun into a traumatic event but I'm not sure why on the measure it'd be best to take it as such.

In my limited observation, more people tend to want to spin sexual assault/ rape as "an unfortunate bit of sex" than the other way, including the victims. Most people don't want to be victims.

I think that's probably the case but I still think what I said is true regarding B's hypothetical and Meri's reaction.

[Valmy]

I thought Jacob's little list was more 'don't be a total monster and you will never rape/sexually assualt anybody' which is the black/white attitude that I don't think is very helpful in understanding why it occurs.  But not that 'every man is a rapist' it seemed more directed towards rapists not wanting to be rapists or something.

It may have also been a joke about how sometimes people spin it as the rapist is the victim of the accusation.

[derspiess]

I am never going to allow myself to be alone with a woman ever again. There has to be a witness to my innocence. Also, I am going to require my wife to sign a release form every night before entering the bedroom.

No shit.  Going by some definitions I probably "sexually assault" my wife almost every night-- sometimes involuntarily and/or while I'm asleep!

[Valmy]

No shit.  Going by some definitions I probably "sexually assault" my wife almost every night-- sometimes involuntarily and/or while I'm asleep!

Well sometimes she will come up and start kissing on me but I am not in the mood.  I guess unwanted sexual touching just occured.  They at least have to mention that you told them to stop and they did not stop or something.  Otherwise that definition is just ridiculous.

[merithyn]

Is it though? I have to wonder in what Berk highlighted if a bigger issue would be people telling her its shitty and that it's sexual assault/rape. What would really just be an unfortunate bit of sex could be spun into a traumatic event but I'm not sure why on the measure it'd be best to take it as such.

In my limited observation, more people tend to want to spin sexual assault/ rape as "an unfortunate bit of sex" than the other way, including the victims. Most people don't want to be victims.

Not to mention that most people don't want their own past pulled out and danced around a courtroom to prove that they're pure enough to mean no when they said it.

Look, I was a victim of date-rape when I was in high school. I was drunk, he was drunk, but I very clearly said no. Several times. He really couldn't have cared less what I said, and he was bigger and stronger than I was. I never told anyone because I knew that ultimately, I would end up the one labeled, not him. He did one better. He told everyone that I'd begged him for it, gave it up in glee, and asked if he would call me again. How could I then come out and say, "Actually, this is what happened."? Who would have believed me? People would have just assumed that I was claiming rape because he never called me again.

It was traumatic because of how it happened, and the fall-out from it. (Luckily, I was self-possessed enough to get through the school gossip fairly intact.) The situation that Berkut outlined was different, but if she's said no and she knew she wasn't ready and HE knew she wasn't ready, then going forward with it is going to end up pretty awful for her. Not only that, but I can't imagine the relationship being very successful after that, either.

[Valmy]

He did one better. He told everyone that I'd begged him for it, gave it up in glee, and asked if he would call me again. How could I then come out and say, "Actually, this is what happened."? Who would have believed me? People would have just assumed that I was claiming rape because he never called me again.

Wow...it is like you were dating Caligula or something.

[Malthus]

Weird definitions Malthus - to me there's a huge range of sexual assaults inbetween an unwanted touching, and a sex assault where you are held down, hurt or threatened (such as Berkut's date rape example).

By asking women over the age of 15 you're also leaving out a lot of victims...

I assume the age 15 cut-off was because it is very, very difficult to survey children both practically and ethically - and you don't want to mix statistics derived from police reports (which significantly under-report incidents) with survey data.

The definitions at the least differentiate "sexual attack" from "unwanted touching". They divvy it up this way, allegedly, to correspond to grades of charges that would be laid in each case.