25 years old and deep in debt

[Barrister]

I am never going to allow myself to be alone with a woman ever again. There has to be a witness to my innocence. Also, I am going to require my wife to sign a release form every night before entering the bedroom.

No shit.  Going by some definitions I probably "sexually assault" my wife almost every night-- sometimes involuntarily and/or while I'm asleep!

That is a bit of a theoretical problem.  The way Canadian law is, you can not consent to sexual activity if you're unconscious, and if you lose consciousness any prior consent is vitiated.  So, if you're significant other is asleep it is technically against the law to initiate any kind of sex act.

That being said - have you ever heard of anyone being charged with sex assault in that kind of scenario?  Of course not.  The system has common sense.

[Valmy]

You're right, it was a joke. However, I thought it had some merit in that it reversed the usual subject and tone of the joke. Most rape jokes treat the act of rape and/or the rape victim as the punchline. This joke relied on absurdity; it's very different, IMO.

Well in the context of knowing it was reversing a list telling women how to avoid being raped it makes alot more sense

[merithyn]

Is it the readiness part that makes it rape/sexual assualt? As in - if she'd already had intercourse before with him then it wouldn't be rape?

I'm thinking you'll say no but then I'm not sure how you balance the fact that she eventually let it happen - with really no show of force on his part.

She let it happen with no show of force, but with considerable pressure towards the end on the part of the guy after she had clearly said no. That makes it rape.

I'll spin out two personal examples (one of which I've shared in the past).

1) There was a fellow student (upperclassman) who I once slept with and then later went to visit in city. By the time we got into his bed - it was like 3 am and I was drunk and just ready for sleep.  Of course as he had me in his bed he was ready to go. I slapped his hand away several times and told him I wasn't up for it. He kept insisting and though I'd said no several times - essentially used me as a masturbatory toy before nodding off.  Was I sexually assaulted? His penis was on me when I didn't want it.

2) I met a guy while drunk at a bar and agreed to go to his place. We were messing around when he stated that he wanted me to fuck him. I said no as I was drunk and didn't think I was capable of making good decisions. All of that said out loud. Little bits of time would past and he'd suggest again to which I said no. At one point he tried to sneak a condom onto me.  I should have left but I was so tired that we both agreed to just go to sleep.  Next morning I woke up with a condom on and he was fucking himself on me. I quickly threw him off and was like I was pretty clear on that last night.  Was sexually assaulted/raped?

I would say yes in both situations. You clearly said no and were not only ignored but used for their sexual pleasure anyway. That is very clearly sexual assault/rape.

How you chose to deal with it is entirely up to you. Not everyone can shrug something like that off. It depends entirely on their own history, experiences, and mental well-being. But how the victim deals with what happened doesn't change what the action was.

[Malthus]

But if we're talking about risk management to help people avoid being in an unfortunate situation involving rape, I'd think that telling people who may rape someone what constitutes rape (i.e. if they're sleeping, don't do it) is as valid as telling potential victims what situations to avoid.

I think this is true.  But the tone of the list was making a joke of the whole thing.  Now nothing unusual about rape jokes on this site granted.

Now that is just nasty. 

Valmy sticks the dagger in ...   

[Neil]

The system has common sense.

I think it's unwise to trust your life to the common sense of a system.

[Barrister]

It was traumatic because of how it happened, and the fall-out from it. (Luckily, I was self-possessed enough to get through the school gossip fairly intact.) The situation that Berkut outlined was different, but if she's said no and she knew she wasn't ready and HE knew she wasn't ready, then going forward with it is going to end up pretty awful for her. Not only that, but I can't imagine the relationship being very successful after that, either.

Is it the readiness part that makes it rape/sexual assualt? As in - if she'd already had intercourse before with him then it wouldn't be rape?

I'm thinking you'll say no but then I'm not sure how you balance the fact that she eventually let it happen - with really no show of force on his part.

I'll spin out two personal examples (one of which I've shared in the past).

1) There was a fellow student (upperclassman) who I once slept with and then later went to visit in city. By the time we got into his bed - it was like 3 am and I was drunk and just ready for sleep.  Of course as he had me in his bed he was ready to go. I slapped his hand away several times and told him I wasn't up for it. He kept insisting and though I'd said no several times - essentially used me as a masturbatory toy before nodding off.  Was I sexually assaulted? His penis was on me when I didn't want it.

2) I met a guy while drunk at a bar and agreed to go to his place. We were messing around when he stated that he wanted me to fuck him. I said no as I was drunk and didn't think I was capable of making good decisions. All of that said out loud. Little bits of time would past and he'd suggest again to which I said no. At one point he tried to sneak a condom onto me.  I should have left but I was so tired that we both agreed to just go to sleep.  Next morning I woke up with a condom on and he was fucking himself on me. I quickly threw him off and was like I was pretty clear on that last night.  Was sexually assaulted/raped?

You were unequivocally the victim of a sexual assault in both cases.   

[MadImmortalMan]

I think this is true.  But the tone of the list was making a joke of the whole thing.  Now nothing unusual about rape jokes on this site granted.

You're right, it was a joke. However, I thought it had some merit in that it reversed the usual subject and tone of the joke. Most rape jokes treat the act of rape and/or the rape victim as the punchline. This joke relied on absurdity; it's very different, IMO.

Makes a punchline out of the common dude who would never hurt anyone.

[garbon]

Is it the readiness part that makes it rape/sexual assualt? As in - if she'd already had intercourse before with him then it wouldn't be rape?

I'm thinking you'll say no but then I'm not sure how you balance the fact that she eventually let it happen - with really no show of force on his part.

She let it happen with no show of force, but with considerable pressure towards the end on the part of the guy after she had clearly said no. That makes it rape.

I'll spin out two personal examples (one of which I've shared in the past).

1) There was a fellow student (upperclassman) who I once slept with and then later went to visit in city. By the time we got into his bed - it was like 3 am and I was drunk and just ready for sleep.  Of course as he had me in his bed he was ready to go. I slapped his hand away several times and told him I wasn't up for it. He kept insisting and though I'd said no several times - essentially used me as a masturbatory toy before nodding off.  Was I sexually assaulted? His penis was on me when I didn't want it.

2) I met a guy while drunk at a bar and agreed to go to his place. We were messing around when he stated that he wanted me to fuck him. I said no as I was drunk and didn't think I was capable of making good decisions. All of that said out loud. Little bits of time would past and he'd suggest again to which I said no. At one point he tried to sneak a condom onto me.  I should have left but I was so tired that we both agreed to just go to sleep.  Next morning I woke up with a condom on and he was fucking himself on me. I quickly threw him off and was like I was pretty clear on that last night.  Was sexually assaulted/raped?

I would say yes in both situations. You clearly said no and were not only ignored but used for their sexual pleasure anyway. That is very clearly sexual assault/rape.

How you chose to deal with it is entirely up to you. Not everyone can shrug something like that off. It depends entirely on their own history, experiences, and mental well-being. But how the victim deals with what happened doesn't change what the action was.

I don't see the usefulness in describing those as sexual assault/rape (which previously Languish had decided example 2 was not rape).  I certainly learned from both what I'm wiling to put up with and also about the effects of alcohol on decision making but saying I was sexually assaulted adds a whole ominous tone to those encounters that I didn't feel then or now.  Otherwise, one is saying objectively that in both cases those men should have faced criminal penalties.  I don't see why that's true.

[Barrister]

I wasn't dating him. He and I were at a party at his cousin's house. He took me to his cousin's room when I asked where the bathroom was.

Ah so date-rape is any rape that takes place in a social setting?

Date rape is a fairly useless term.

I'd stick with "rape where the victim knows the identity of the attacker".

[merithyn]

But Meri--did you fight? I assume from your story that you didn't do anything about it. Did you think nobody would help you or take you seriously? I mean, people throw the R word around like it's jellybeans on Halloween, but you can still get major help if you come forward. I guarantee not everyone would buy the story the guy was throwing around.

Maybe I'm being naive again.

This was in 1987, MiM. I was drunk. I fought as much as I could, but no, I didn't try to claw his eyes out. I just wanted him off me. On top of that, I was 17 years old. I still cared more about people liking me than taking care of myself, and I didn't want to make a fuss over something I honestly believed (and still believe) no one would have listened to. Besides, I wasn't a virgin, which would have automatically made anything that I said suspect.

You really don't understand, do you? It would have been a he said/she said situation. We were drunk. He would have claimed that I voluntarily went to the bedroom with him. He was better known (read: more popular), and I wasn't a virgin. The only people who would have believed me would have been my friends. Hell, I wouldn't have been surprised that if I told my parents that they wouldn't have blamed me. My brother was at the party with me, and he didn't believe me (he was the only person I told at the time), so why would I expect anyone else to do so?

[Neil]

On more than one occasion I was groped by a woman in a bar after telling her not to do so.  But that's not sexual assault, that's just shit that happens.

[Barrister]

He did one better. He told everyone that I'd begged him for it, gave it up in glee, and asked if he would call me again. How could I then come out and say, "Actually, this is what happened."? Who would have believed me? People would have just assumed that I was claiming rape because he never called me again.

Wow...it is like you were dating Caligula or something.

But Meri--did you fight? I assume from your story that you didn't do anything about it. Did you think nobody would help you or take you seriously? I mean, people throw the R word around like it's jellybeans on Halloween, but you can still get major help if you come forward. I guarantee not everyone would buy the story the guy was throwing around.

Maybe I'm being naive again.

I don't know what to tell you MIM. 

Malthus will yell at me for using anecdotes, but I have prosecuted a few dozen rape cases.  I can think of precisely two where the victim yelled, screamed and ran out of the house.

For whatever reason - the impairing effects of alcohol or drugs, the sheer shock and surprise at what is happening, the sense of shame and embarassment - Meri's reaction seems quite typical.

[MadImmortalMan]

This was in 1987, MiM. I was drunk. I fought as much as I could, but no, I didn't try to claw his eyes out. I just wanted him off me. On top of that, I was 17 years old. I still cared more about people liking me than taking care of myself, and I didn't want to make a fuss over something I honestly believed (and still believe) no one would have listened to. Besides, I wasn't a virgin, which would have automatically made anything that I said suspect.

You really don't understand, do you? It would have been a he said/she said situation. We were drunk. He would have claimed that I voluntarily went to the bedroom with him. He was better known (read: more popular), and I wasn't a virgin. The only people who would have believed me would have been my friends. Hell, I wouldn't have been surprised that if I told my parents that they wouldn't have blamed me. My brother was at the party with me, and he didn't believe me (he was the only person I told at the time), so why would I expect anyone else to do so?

Honestly, I don't know that I would have done anything differently. Maybe on some level I really don't understand--it's possible. I mean guys are less risk-averse and everything in my being would say fight fight fight until somebody can't fight anymore. I feel for you though. There's no good way out of that and you probably did the right thing under the circumstances.

This thread has made me hate humanity.

[Barrister]

I don't see the usefulness in describing those as sexual assault/rape (which previously Languish had decided example 2 was not rape).  I certainly learned from both what I'm wiling to put up with and also about the effects of alcohol on decision making but saying I was sexually assaulted adds a whole ominous tone to those encounters that I didn't feel then or now.  Otherwise, one is saying objectively that in both cases those men should have faced criminal penalties.  I don't see why that's true.

Garbo, I'm glad you don't feel victimized, but how is what you've described not a sexual assault?  As you said - they did sexual acts with you you didn't want.  It's the very definition of sexual assault.

Those men should have faced criminal penalties so they didn't sexually assault more people in the future.   

[merithyn]

I don't know what to tell you MIM. 

Malthus will yell at me for using anecdotes, but I have prosecuted a few dozen rape cases.  I can think of precisely two where the victim yelled, screamed and ran out of the house.

For whatever reason - the impairing effects of alcohol or drugs, the sheer shock and surprise at what is happening, the sense of shame and embarassment - Meri's reaction seems quite typical.

That actually makes me feel a little better about the situation, BB. I always kind of felt a little sick that I didn't do more to make it stop. I mean, I don't still feel traumatized by the situation anymore. I dealt with all of that a long time ago. But that doesn't mean that I don't still relive it on occasion, wishing that I'd done things differently or imagining how I would handle the situation if it were to happen today.