25 years old and deep in debt

[Neil]

A person can consent to sex and then regret it the next day.  That doesn't make it rape.

Meri says otherwise.

[Barrister]

But yes doesn't mean no.

Of course not. But a drunken yes might be a sober no. The problem is, it was a yes at the time. I honestly don't have any idea how to alleviate that, but it is what it is. It's not rape if it's yes.

Why did you trim the rest of my response.  That's where I answered this concern.

[Malthus]

I mean, when Brazen says that there a few women her age - and she doubts any age - who have not been sexually assaulted or raped what do you make of that? Is she being hysterical? Is she trying to get some guy put into prison like Neil apparently fears? Is it possible she is better placed than you to judge the experience of women and is actually correct?

Well, either she is right on this point or the survey is. They can't both be right, as the survey only has the rate at 25%.

Hence the difficulty of evaluating statistics by means of anecdote (same of course goes for those dismissing the results out-of-hand as excessively high).

[Phillip V]

How about we start by teaching young men and women in Sex Ed what "no" can look like, what "compromised mental ability to give permission" looks like, and what affect rape can have on a person and their families? Then, we start working on getting rid of the idea that the victim could ever "ask for it". Now, let's seriously get rid of the whole "gift from God" pregnancy fiasco.

That's where I would start, anyway.

Yeah I have to say they hammered the 'no means no' thing into us pretty well.  But they never mentioned anything about how different it is when everybody is drunk.

Agree. Everything is painted or thought of as night-and-day, but it's not.

Thus, my solution is:
1. Culture/education
2. Preventative action
3. Institutional process/law

#2 is the easiest and fastest. For both potential rapist and victim. I do not buy that the average rapist is some evil / fucked up person. Any of us can become a rapist. Thus, I seek to avoid putting myself in a situation where I can become a rapist, such as excessively pursuing women mixed with alcohol and no oversight.
Look, it's ultimately the rapist's "fault", but women (and men) should also exercise risk management. Try to go out at night with a trusted friend that will watch your back (one that is truly vetted and good). Do not hang out with a male acquaintances alone. I have taken women out that hardly knew me in circumstances "as a friend" they should not have agreed to. For example, one to a secluded ranch because she liked horses. Another I drove 40 minutes away from her apartment to my hotel room without prior notice, and she even agreed to a drink. These women genuinely were not seeking sex, but I could have easily stepped over the line.

We could also go over best practices in school setting, church setting, even extended family setting (rape by relative), but the point is to get into a risk management mindset for both victim, possible rapist, and leadership/authorities.

[merithyn]

If Meri feels that the presumption of innocence turns women into second-class citizens, then there really isn't much of a middle ground at all.

Um... I said having the judge of a rape case ask if the victim is promiscuous puts us in that status. That's not exactly the same thing that you're claiming. 

[CountDeMoney]

Joe and Sarah gave been dating a while.

They have yet to have sex, although they have talked about it/made out, etc.

Joe wants to have sex, Sarah is not so sure.

Joa and Sarah go out to dinner, and share a bottle of wine. Both are feeling pretty good, and go back to Joe's apartment, where they have some more wine.

Sarah is pretty buzzed, but she still knows that she isn't quite ready to have sex with Joe - maybe soon, but not yet.

They are making out. Joe slides his hand inside Sarahs jeans. She likes it, but realizes thing are going a little fast than she would like.

She asks Joe to slow down, and he does, briefly, but they are still making out.

Sarah realized that her pants are now mostly off. She panics a little bit, and tells Joe to stop. Joe, being a gentleman, does so.

Sarah feels bad, because she does like Joe, and he seems pretty dissapointed, so she decides to go a little further, and performs oral on Joe.

Joe is getting pretty fired up again, Sarah is now shirtless and down to her underwear.

Joe is between her legs, and intercourse is clearly iminent - again. Sarah is feeling pretty worked up herself, and a little bit like she is probably not being entirely reasonable telling Joe no, but still - she just isn't ready.

She asks Joe to stop. Joe is on top of her, and now he is clearly upset/dissapointed. Not violent, or even apparenlty violent, but clearly unhappy at what he sees as being very frustrated.

Joe stops, but places his hand inside the wasteband of her panties, and says "Come on Sarah, we've waited long enough!" and starts sliding down her underwear. Sarah really doesn't want to, but is tired of saying no, so she does not object, but she does not say yes either. Joe removes her panties, and they have intercourse.

Did Joe rape Sarah? Did Joe sexually assault Sarah?

I don't know...but in either case, I spooged.  BERKUT WRITES HAWT

[Jacob]

There is no doubt that sexual violence is a serious problem. However, there is also no doubt that the statistics used to demonstrate this are not very reliable.

The problem is that the definition is pretty elastic. If you include "unwanted sexual advances" you would, honestly, get a very high, and perhaps universal, number - I've had those myself, from both men and women, and I'm hardly the main target. OTOH there is considerable underreporting for the reasons you note.

To say this is not to "dismiss and ridicule" the problem or the victims of it. I disagree that the numbers are of no significance. The reason for generating the numbers in the first place is so as to rank the significance of the problem vs. other problems. This leads advocates of all sorts into a sort of spiral of escalation - how many have been sexually assaulted, how many have been a victim of racial or sexual discrimination, how many have been bullied, etc. Given that resources to do something about these various problems are limited, saying that they are all of the first importance as demonstrated by statistics showing a high incidence of incidents is functionally the same as saying that none of them are.

That being noted, there is no doubt that for cultural reasons this was an issue fundamentally underplayed and swept under the carpet in the past.

What do you mean by 'limited resources'?

I don't think anyone in this thread - nor in the general public discussion of the issue, such as it is - has called for, say, increased prosecution of unwanted sexual advances; so I'm not sure which resources you're talking about.

I agree with you that definitions seem pretty elastic some times and that, combined with the sensitive nature of the subject, can complicate the discussion.

If we're speaking of 'unwanted sexual advances' my assumption is that it's physical, but falls short of rape.

I don't think we're taking resources away from dealing with rape if we draw attention to the fact that unwanted sexual advances happen with disturbing frequency, that many women experience them and that this is terrible. I don't think we're taking resources away from dealing with rape if we, as individuals, make it clear that unwanted sexual advances are unacceptable and we exact a social price from the people who make them in our social circle. And I don't think we're taking resources away from dealing with rape if making unwanted sexual advances in the work place or other professional situations has significant impact on someone's career; yes, that leaves people potentially vulnerable to false accusations but the way to deal with that is to make sure you're never in a situation where that would be credible. We're already seeing that - professors leaving their office doors open when they're speaking with students, managers refraining from trying to sleep with the hot secretary even though she may be interested etc.

So yeah... I think we can have the conversations, we can raise some awareness, we can shift some social behaviour and all of that can (and is, I think) improve things.

[merithyn]

Joe and Sarah gave been dating a while.

They have yet to have sex, although they have talked about it/made out, etc.

Joe wants to have sex, Sarah is not so sure.

Joa and Sarah go out to dinner, and share a bottle of wine. Both are feeling pretty good, and go back to Joe's apartment, where they have some more wine.

Sarah is pretty buzzed, but she still knows that she isn't quite ready to have sex with Joe - maybe soon, but not yet.

They are making out. Joe slides his hand inside Sarahs jeans. She likes it, but realizes thing are going a little fast than she would like.

She asks Joe to slow down, and he does, briefly, but they are still making out.

Sarah realized that her pants are now mostly off. She panics a little bit, and tells Joe to stop. Joe, being a gentleman, does so.

Sarah feels bad, because she does like Joe, and he seems pretty dissapointed, so she decides to go a little further, and performs oral on Joe.

Joe is getting pretty fired up again, Sarah is now shirtless and down to her underwear.

Joe is between her legs, and intercourse is clearly iminent - again. Sarah is feeling pretty worked up herself, and a little bit like she is probably not being entirely reasonable telling Joe no, but still - she just isn't ready.

She asks Joe to stop. Joe is on top of her, and now he is clearly upset/dissapointed. Not violent, or even apparenlty violent, but clearly unhappy at what he sees as being very frustrated.

Joe stops, but places his hand inside the wasteband of her panties, and says "Come on Sarah, we've waited long enough!" and starts sliding down her underwear. Sarah really doesn't want to, but is tired of saying no, so she does not object, but she does not say yes either. Joe removes her panties, and they have intercourse.

Did Joe rape Sarah? Did Joe sexually assault Sarah?

Yes. He did. She said no and that she wasn't ready. Rather than stopping and making sure it was what she really wanted, he allowed it to continue/pushed it further.

Is it a shitty situation? Yes, it is.

[MadImmortalMan]

I know I'm an overly optimistic person, and I really do err on that side sometimes, but this world is a piece of complete shit if one in four or one in three women get raped in their lifetimes. That's just ass.



BTW--UMass Amherst has 27000 students. If half of those are women (it's probably closer to 65% but I don't know), then it would take 168.75 years for 25% of them to get raped. 27000/2/20/4. Maybe they're moving to Baltimore after graduation.

[Jacob]

Okay not joking around now---Do you guys seriously think that 25% of women are raped every year?

No, I don't think 25% of women are raped every year.

I do find it credible that 25% of women on a college campus have experienced rape or non-trivial unwanted sexual advances at their time there. I also find it credible that higher number of women than that will experience such a thing in their life time; I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than the majority.

[merithyn]

I know I'm an overly optimistic person, and I really do err on that side sometimes, but this world is a piece of complete shit if one in four or one in three women get raped in their lifetimes. That's just ass.



BTW--UMass Amherst has 27000 students. If half of those are women (it's probably closer to 65% but I don't know), then it would take 168.75 years for 25% of them to get raped. 27000/2/20/4. Maybe they're moving to Baltimore after graduation.

Raped or sexually assaulted. It doesn't always culminate in a completed sex act.

Keep in mind that that number also includes child sexual assault, at least from my understanding.

[Jacob]

How about we start by teaching young men and women in Sex Ed what "no" can look like, what "compromised mental ability to give permission" looks like, and what affect rape can have on a person and their families? Then, we start working on getting rid of the idea that the victim could ever "ask for it". Now, let's seriously get rid of the whole "gift from God" pregnancy fiasco.

That's where I would start, anyway.

Sounds like a good start.

[Barrister]

I know I'm an overly optimistic person, and I really do err on that side sometimes, but this world is a piece of complete shit if one in four or one in three women get raped in their lifetimes. That's just ass.

There you have it.

[Neil]

Always trying to mix in the unwanted sexual advances with the rape.  You people are a kick.

[Phillip V]

Joe and Sarah gave been dating a while.

They have yet to have sex, although they have talked about it/made out, etc.

Joe wants to have sex, Sarah is not so sure.

Joa and Sarah go out to dinner, and share a bottle of wine. Both are feeling pretty good, and go back to Joe's apartment, where they have some more wine.

Sarah is pretty buzzed, but she still knows that she isn't quite ready to have sex with Joe - maybe soon, but not yet.

They are making out. Joe slides his hand inside Sarahs jeans. She likes it, but realizes thing are going a little fast than she would like.

She asks Joe to slow down, and he does, briefly, but they are still making out.

Sarah realized that her pants are now mostly off. She panics a little bit, and tells Joe to stop. Joe, being a gentleman, does so.

Sarah feels bad, because she does like Joe, and he seems pretty dissapointed, so she decides to go a little further, and performs oral on Joe.

Joe is getting pretty fired up again, Sarah is now shirtless and down to her underwear.

Joe is between her legs, and intercourse is clearly iminent - again. Sarah is feeling pretty worked up herself, and a little bit like she is probably not being entirely reasonable telling Joe no, but still - she just isn't ready.

She asks Joe to stop. Joe is on top of her, and now he is clearly upset/dissapointed. Not violent, or even apparenlty violent, but clearly unhappy at what he sees as being very frustrated.

Joe stops, but places his hand inside the wasteband of her panties, and says "Come on Sarah, we've waited long enough!" and starts sliding down her underwear. Sarah really doesn't want to, but is tired of saying no, so she does not object, but she does not say yes either. Joe removes her panties, and they have intercourse.

Did Joe rape Sarah? Did Joe sexually assault Sarah?

I was in this situation two years ago. She was naked and oral sex had occurred. But she was about the whole "need a boyfriend/girlfriend label" before vaginal sex, but not forcefully protesting. So I pulled back, but I was sober. If I was younger (stupid) and had been drinking...
And she probably would have convinced herself to keep fucking me in later liaisons to legitimize it. I hate the way this shit works.