Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

I guess someone should do something about that.  Maybe Canada?  The UK?  South Africa?  Ireland?  I dunno.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes of course.  Between Hamas and Israel, any possible expression of Palestinian civil society in Gaza has been utterly destroyed.  Hamas is all there is left to fill the vacuum. Which of course serves the Likudniks just fine because it ensures Gaza will remain weak and isolated and destitute, as well as feed their hard-line security narrative.  It's a symbiotic relationship.

How did Israel destroy any possible expression of Palestinian civil society?

[The Minsky Moment]

How did Israel destroy any possible expression of Palestinian civil society?

By destroying the housing, the shops, the businesses, the offices, the mosques and churches, the coffee shops and restaurants, the social clubs, the hospitals and the clinics.  By rendering the entire population destitute and jobless, by destroying all meaningful economic activity, forcing the entire population to be nearly completely reliant on outside aid.

What other organized body is left in Gaza other than Hamas?

[Admiral Yi]

By destroying the housing, the shops, the businesses, the offices, the mosques and churches, the coffee shops and restaurants, the social clubs, the hospitals and the clinics.  By rendering the entire population destitute and jobless, by destroying all meaningful economic activity, forcing the entire population to be nearly completely reliant on outside aid.

What other organized body is left in Gaza other than Hamas?

Are you saying before the invasion civic society other than Hamas *did* exist in Gaza?

The article mentions opposition based on tribe.

[Josquius]

Didn't she actually sail there are get arrested or something? Seems bizarre to have such sneering contempt for somebody who actually put their ass on the line.

Also what exactly is your criticism here? Is there some concrete action one individual person can do that would instantly solve all these problems? I mean if US Presidents have flailed importently for decades it seems insane to direct your ire at some random powerless private person. Seems like the people who actually have power, money, and resources and still miserably fail at everything would be more worthy of your contempt.

My criticism is that Squeeze gets what he wants, which is a cease fire and the IDF "fucks off" from at least parts of Gaza, Hamas starts shooting Palestinians, and he can't accept that's a result of exactly what he was asking for.

Oh no, I'm totally with you. Its all the fault of those horrible nasty woke people with their little boat of food.
If only the IDF had blown up a few more neighbourhoods, if the famine had been able to develop a bit more... You know, a few thousand more dead kids. That's the key. If only they'd delivered that then they'd absolutely have cut off civilian support for the guys chanting death to Israel and oppressing Gaza on a more day to day level.

[OttoVonBismarck]

While he won't win a Nobel Peace Prize for it, despite his many foreign policy failures, Trump's unique relationship with Netanyahu and his blustering ways actually got us to a pretty good cease fire here with all 20 living hostages returned.

It likely doesn't fix the underlying conflict since that is quite literally not fixable, but an end to the ongoing war being an irritant in diplomacy is a good thing regardless. At worst Gaza can simply be walled off again--obviously much better walling off than pre-October 7th.

The big thing we've learned from this conflict though is that most of the EU needs to be removed from NATO, or more likely the U.S. needs to formally dissolve NATO and offer a similar treaty between a list of countries that we can trust not to side with Hamas and Islamic terror in general.

NATO was created to protect Western Europe from the spread of Soviet communism. Now that most of Western Europe has made it known they are Islamist, it is no longer in the interest of the U.S. to have our blood and treasure locked into an agreement to protect those countries. We have neither shared values or interests. The coming century is one in which Islam will continue to grow and aggressive action must be used to fight it at every turn.

I would be in favor of a similar arrangement involving Israel, the Baltic States + Greece, Poland would be offered a chance to join but only if they rescind their 1988 recognition of a Palestinian state.

The rest of NATO should largely not be seen as American allies, Canada would continue to receive American protection for the simple reality of realpolitik that we have to defend a country incapable of its own affairs due to its geographic location representing a vulnerability to the U.S. if it were not defended.

We also should end the Five Eyes arrangement and terminate AUKUS, as the Anglosphere countries have shown they are Islamist in nature.

While trade (due to Trump's stupidity) represents a current barrier to this, the countries that seem to actually be serious about addressing Islamism are India and China, which are also much more important and valuable countries than the decrepit Islamist states of Western Europe. China in particular should be lauded for how it has aggressively stamped out Islamism in Xinjiang province. As Western Europe is Islamist-captive at this point, they will never be able to fix the infection they have.

[The Brain]

Are there still people who consider the US a member of NATO in any meaningful way?

[OttoVonBismarck]

Hopefully not. NATO is a corrupt tax on American resources for no benefit.

[The Minsky Moment]

Hopefully not. NATO is a corrupt tax on American resources for no benefit.

Yes, yes, I already know what RT is saying about it, but what's your view?

[The Minsky Moment]

Are you saying before the invasion civic society other than Hamas *did* exist in Gaza?

Of course, there were clubs, private businesses, neighborhoods, sports teams, etc.  Perhaps not politically powerful, but such things are the building blocks for the possibility of some other political future. 

The article mentions opposition based on tribe.

I didn't see anything about tribes.  There are still strong extended family structures in Palestinian society, and the article does allude to one of them.  That's not what I meant by civil society.  When an extended family grouping becomes ascendant politically, you get something like the Assads in Syria.

[Razgovory]

Didn't she actually sail there are get arrested or something? Seems bizarre to have such sneering contempt for somebody who actually put their ass on the line.

Also what exactly is your criticism here? Is there some concrete action one individual person can do that would instantly solve all these problems? I mean if US Presidents have flailed importently for decades it seems insane to direct your ire at some random powerless private person. Seems like the people who actually have power, money, and resources and still miserably fail at everything would be more worthy of your contempt.

My criticism is that Squeeze gets what he wants, which is a cease fire and the IDF "fucks off" from at least parts of Gaza, Hamas starts shooting Palestinians, and he can't accept that's a result of exactly what he was asking for.

Oh no, I'm totally with you. Its all the fault of those horrible nasty woke people with their little boat of food.
If only the IDF had blown up a few more neighbourhoods, if the famine had been able to develop a bit more... You know, a few thousand more dead kids. That's the key. If only they'd delivered that then they'd absolutely have cut off civilian support for the guys chanting death to Israel and oppressing Gaza on a more day to day level.

Did they actually have any food on those boats?  Mostly it seem to be full of hipsters.  The Israelis did not find any aid.  Anyway, they are now trying your plan.  "Back the fuck off".  I'm sure that will bring peace.

[Grey Fox]

OvB always so impatient.

[Admiral Yi]

I didn't see anything about tribes.  There are still strong extended family structures in Palestinian society, and the article does allude to one of them.  That's not what I meant by civil society.  When an extended family grouping becomes ascendant politically, you get something like the Assads in Syria.

"But Hamas' control of Gaza has been challenged by several clans in recent months, especially in the south. Some of those groups have received protection from the Israeli military.

Social media channels affiliated with Hamas reported clashes in the Sabra area of Gaza City between a prominent family and security forces during which Muhammad Imad Aql, the son of a senior Hamas military commander, was killed.

Hamas forces surrounded the Dughmush family's neighborhood on Friday night. Sources told CNN that several members of the family had been killed, and a large number of masked, armed men had been deployed around the Jordanian hospital in Gaza City.

CNN was told Sunday that clashes continued in the area.

In southern Gaza, a group opposed to Hamas known as the Popular Forces has refused to lay down its arms.

The group has been involved in escorting aid shipments and has publicly challenged Hamas, which in turn has said it will confront what it called a criminal gang.

One of its commanders, Hussam al-Astal, posted on Facebook Saturday: "To all the Hamas rats, your tunnels are destroyed, your rights no longer exist. Repent before it's too late – there is no Hamas from today onward."

Sorry, clans not tribes.

[The Minsky Moment]

Yeah a clan is a reference to a prominent extended family group, like the Barghoutis or the Husseinis back in the old days.  Tribes are a Bedouin thing.