Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[grumbler]

Yeah - so I think it depends what you mean by the high street. I don't think it means the high street with traditional retail outlets, I think it means the sort of town centre. Certainly that's what I mean by it and why I don't really think the focus on retail is entirely right (or if it is the retail mix is shifting).

I think it is worth saving for political reasons. The state of the high street/town centre is a really important factor in how people perceive their local economy, I think it's got value for that sort of location wellbeing. But also I think it's a focus for community and identity in your town/village/city. I think you can probably very easily map the most shuttered up/for rent high streets with the "left behind" - and this isn't just a UK thing there are statistics in France in the communes that don't have a local shop being far more likely to vote RN for example. So if we actually want to address that economic inequality you also need to address the perception of inequality - and that goes through the high street.

I also think there are probably good economic arguments. Money spent on high streets are far likely to stay and circulate in the local community than money spent at, say, the big box supermarket or the retail park. Plus there's a virtuous cycle element - if there's a vibrant high street, that attracts businesses to rent in that area, which leads to more money being spent and so on. The alternative is more likely to be industrial parks, out of town retail centres etc.

Some of it will be about retail, but as I say, a lot will be about the more experience stuff because that's where consumers are moving. It's not about specific businesses that should be saved so much as a space.

I think that having that space is worth spending some money on, but I don't think that the solution is going to come from punishing customers who use other, cheaper methods of getting goods.

As you say, high street retail is doomed.  So, the solution seems to me to be to encourage the alternative use of the high street real estate; community centers, restaurants, boutique stores, and the like. 

Collecting appropriate taxes from tax-slippery entities is also a laudable goal.  If this means a tax on consumption, then so be it; a bad solution is better than no solution.

The key, though, is to recognize that these are separate issues.  Governments can act to attract the survivable sorts of businesses to the high street without imposing taxes on slippery businesses, and vice-versa.

[Tamas]

Are we assuming as a given that high streets are something worth saving?

They should be. Given my experiences in Japan and indeed the quality of life in car focused cities closer to home I dread to think of the UK heading that way.
I've not got anything to hand but I've read a lot of pretty convincing arguments that gel with this about their importance for social cohesion, attracting business clusters, etc.... I can't recall anything written this side of the 70s on why they're bad.

I wasn't coming at it from the angle that high streets are bad but was questioning the underlying assumption in all this that they are worth saving. After all, even without COVID-19, a lot of work was going to need to be put it to undertake these revitalization schemes.

They are as essential to save as taxi drivers are to be saved from Uber.

[Tamas]

Yeah - so I think it depends what you mean by the high street. I don't think it means the high street with traditional retail outlets, I think it means the sort of town centre. Certainly that's what I mean by it and why I don't really think the focus on retail is entirely right (or if it is the retail mix is shifting).

I think it is worth saving for political reasons. The state of the high street/town centre is a really important factor in how people perceive their local economy, I think it's got value for that sort of location wellbeing. But also I think it's a focus for community and identity in your town/village/city. I think you can probably very easily map the most shuttered up/for rent high streets with the "left behind" - and this isn't just a UK thing there are statistics in France in the communes that don't have a local shop being far more likely to vote RN for example. So if we actually want to address that economic inequality you also need to address the perception of inequality - and that goes through the high street.

I also think there are probably good economic arguments. Money spent on high streets are far likely to stay and circulate in the local community than money spent at, say, the big box supermarket or the retail park. Plus there's a virtuous cycle element - if there's a vibrant high street, that attracts businesses to rent in that area, which leads to more money being spent and so on. The alternative is more likely to be industrial parks, out of town retail centres etc.

Some of it will be about retail, but as I say, a lot will be about the more experience stuff because that's where consumers are moving. It's not about specific businesses that should be saved so much as a space.

I think that having that space is worth spending some money on, but I don't think that the solution is going to come from punishing customers who use other, cheaper methods of getting goods.

As you say, high street retail is doomed.  So, the solution seems to me to be to encourage the alternative use of the high street real estate; community centers, restaurants, boutique stores, and the like. 

Collecting appropriate taxes from tax-slippery entities is also a laudable goal.  If this means a tax on consumption, then so be it; a bad solution is better than no solution.

The key, though, is to recognize that these are separate issues.  Governments can act to attract the survivable sorts of businesses to the high street without imposing taxes on slippery businesses, and vice-versa.

You are right of course and I think Sheilbh's general point also agrees with you. And it is a fairly easy conclusion that you can have a community space even if you have more community-oriented spaces there, instead of retail shops.

Which just highlights that all the angst for the high street shops by the media and politicians is just lobbying by the high street chains and other retail businesses, as opposed to a general worry about the wellbeing of local communities. It's like how the taxi guilds are using the BS of workers right and passenger safety to protect their practices from modern competition.

[Sheilbh]

They are as essential to save as taxi drivers are to be saved from Uber.

But again there are issues with Uber - which is why they keep having issues in the UK courts. Fundamentally it's a similar problem if the cost saving that the tech solution provides is actually just a form of regulatory or tax arbitrage then we should deal with that before there's no alternative (which is the Uber strategy). As a society we do not benefit from tech solutions that basically rely on avoiding our regulations or taxes to make their money.

There may be a really good reason to reduce those taxes or change those regulations, but we shouldn't just let businesses build themselves up by avoiding them and we certainly shouldn't sort of valourise them.

I think that having that space is worth spending some money on, but I don't think that the solution is going to come from punishing customers who use other, cheaper methods of getting goods.

As you say, high street retail is doomed.  So, the solution seems to me to be to encourage the alternative use of the high street real estate; community centers, restaurants, boutique stores, and the like.

Absolutely - agree. There have been multiple reports on the high street and they've all come to similar conclusions which are actually about local business rates (a property tax), planning/use restrictions, competition from companies like Amazon and other issues. I think all of those can and should be addressed but are kind of separate to the tax point.

Collecting appropriate taxes from tax-slippery entities is also a laudable goal.  If this means a tax on consumption, then so be it; a bad solution is better than no solution.

The key, though, is to recognize that these are separate issues.  Governments can act to attract the survivable sorts of businesses to the high street without imposing taxes on slippery businesses, and vice-versa.

Yeah. They are separate. We are implementing a Digital Services Tax, it makes no sense to me why you would just cover services except maybe that they are the more slippery bit of the tech sector.

[garbon]

Yeah - so I think it depends what you mean by the high street. I don't think it means the high street with traditional retail outlets, I think it means the sort of town centre. Certainly that's what I mean by it and why I don't really think the focus on retail is entirely right (or if it is the retail mix is shifting).

I think it is worth saving for political reasons. The state of the high street/town centre is a really important factor in how people perceive their local economy, I think it's got value for that sort of location wellbeing. But also I think it's a focus for community and identity in your town/village/city. I think you can probably very easily map the most shuttered up/for rent high streets with the "left behind" - and this isn't just a UK thing there are statistics in France in the communes that don't have a local shop being far more likely to vote RN for example. So if we actually want to address that economic inequality you also need to address the perception of inequality - and that goes through the high street.

I also think there are probably good economic arguments. Money spent on high streets are far likely to stay and circulate in the local community than money spent at, say, the big box supermarket or the retail park. Plus there's a virtuous cycle element - if there's a vibrant high street, that attracts businesses to rent in that area, which leads to more money being spent and so on. The alternative is more likely to be industrial parks, out of town retail centres etc.

Some of it will be about retail, but as I say, a lot will be about the more experience stuff because that's where consumers are moving. It's not about specific businesses that should be saved so much as a space.

I think that having that space is worth spending some money on, but I don't think that the solution is going to come from punishing customers who use other, cheaper methods of getting goods.

As you say, high street retail is doomed.  So, the solution seems to me to be to encourage the alternative use of the high street real estate; community centers, restaurants, boutique stores, and the like. 

Collecting appropriate taxes from tax-slippery entities is also a laudable goal.  If this means a tax on consumption, then so be it; a bad solution is better than no solution.

The key, though, is to recognize that these are separate issues.  Governments can act to attract the survivable sorts of businesses to the high street without imposing taxes on slippery businesses, and vice-versa.

You are right of course and I think Sheilbh's general point also agrees with you. And it is a fairly easy conclusion that you can have a community space even if you have more community-oriented spaces there, instead of retail shops.

Which just highlights that all the angst for the high street shops by the media and politicians is just lobbying by the high street chains and other retail businesses, as opposed to a general worry about the wellbeing of local communities. It's like how the taxi guilds are using the BS of workers right and passenger safety to protect their practices from modern competition.

Yeah, I'd agree with you all broadly. But then it really comes down to securing funding/support for these local community centres and other works...which does seem to often get lost in these save the town centre campaigns.

[Sheilbh]

Extraordinary stat I'd not noticed: the Tories have increased their vote share in every election since 1997 (the last three while in office)

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/27/residents-to-get-new-decision-making-powers-in-cycling-revolution

Residents to get new decision-making powers in England cycling 'revolution'

Residents will get powers to banish through-traffic from local streets and councils will be prevented from building substandard cycle lanes under what Downing Street has billed as a revolution for cycling and walking in England.

The plans will see the creation of a watchdog to ensure new cycle and walking routes are up to standard, intended to act as a transport equivalent of the schools inspectorate, Ofsted.

Active Travel England, to be led by a yet-to-be-appointed commissioner for walking and cycling, will refuse to fund paint-only bike lanes – without physical barriers or protection from cars – or routes where cyclists and pedestrians have to share space. It could also cut budgets in other areas for highways departments which fail to deliver on active transport.

The plans, led by Boris Johnson, will be funded by a previously announced £2bn in new funding over five years, with a pledge of longer-term money. They include cycle training for every child or adult who seeks it, a pilot scheme for GPs to prescribe cycling to improve patients' health, and thousands of miles of protected bike lanes.

Local people will be given a chance to choose whether residential side streets should be closed to through motor traffic to make them safer for pedestrians and cyclists, under plans to be put out for consultation.

Another proposal could see some main roads, for example in cities, kept as through-routes for pedestrians, cyclists and buses, with other motor traffic allowed access only.

Also on the table are grants to help people with the cost of electric-assist bikes, which can encourage cycling, particularly on longer or more hilly commutes. However, these tend to be more expensive than traditional bikes, often costing well over £1,000. It has not yet been specified how much assistance might be offered.

Following Monday's announcement of a new strategy to combat obesity, the push for more active travel is a parallel strand of Downing Street efforts to improve public health, an issue highlighted by worse coronavirus outcomes faced by many people with chronic conditions connected to weight and inactive living, such as type 2 diabetes.

...

[Tamas]

Somebody is getting desperate to switch public attention from the pandemic and Brexit. Understandable, of course.

[Sheilbh]

I'm a little concerned about anything that gives residents powers because we're the most NIMBY country in the world. But most of those ideas sound good. There's been cycle streets around me created during lockdown and a visible increase in the number of people cycling to get around. I hope we try and capture/make that permanent.

And those paint-only cycle lanes are a fucking lie

[Sheilbh]

Somebody is getting desperate to switch public attention from the pandemic and Brexit. Understandable, of course.

I mean distractions normally have to be more exciting than transport policy. Ed Miliband's dad was a Marxist who hates Britain and killed my cat = distraction; District Council powers over the construction of new cycle lanes = .....

[Josquius]

I'm skeptical. Most people aren't capable of thinking beyond immediate cause and effect. This is why cycle infrastructure improvements always attracts such opposition and there are so many people who support just building more roads.
Give locals control over whether to build cycle roads or not.... And you probably won't see many.

[Sheilbh]

I'm skeptical. Most people aren't capable of thinking beyond immediate cause and effect. This is why cycle infrastructure improvements always attracts such opposition and there are so many people who support just building more roads.
Give locals control over whether to build cycle roads or not.... And you probably won't see many.

Yeah. We're the only country in Europe where the Green Party opposes building new railways - we're so fucking NIMBY

[Duque de Bragança]

I'm skeptical. Most people aren't capable of thinking beyond immediate cause and effect. This is why cycle infrastructure improvements always attracts such opposition and there are so many people who support just building more roads.
Give locals control over whether to build cycle roads or not.... And you probably won't see many.

Yeah. We're the only country in Europe where the Green Party opposes building new railways - we're so fucking NIMBY

I would not be so sure.  cf. the mess around the new Alpes railway tunnel between Lyon and Turin.
Do you have anti-vaccine Greens as well?

We need Mongers' opinion on this one:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/27/residents-to-get-new-decision-making-powers-in-cycling-revolution

[Syt]

Wind power in Germany is practically dead because of NIMBY-ism.

[Sheilbh]

Wind power in Germany is practically dead because of NIMBY-ism.

It's a lot more difficult here, especially for on-shore wind power. But I saw a story today that off-shore wind power is now so cheap that they're almost at negative subsidy territory where producers would have to pay to produce power

It's one of the more understated successes of UK politics actually that in the last 5 years there's been a huge shift in our energy mix. So Q1 2020 we were I think 45-50% renewables, about 30% gas, 15% imports from Benelux, France, Ireland and then only 5% coal. We now go weeks on end without firing up the coal plants which is astonishing given the amount we used to rely on coal - it was about 30-40% of our energy until 2015.