Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

I really want a stupid YouTuber to tick yes on that box and film what happens. It's just so delightfully silly.

I swear there was an Onion article about a 10 year old being detained by Homeland Security after accidentally ticking the "I intend to commit terrorism" box

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/27/rishi-sunak-online-sales-tax-protect-high-streets-coronavirus

Rishi Sunak could levy online sales tax to protect high streets

Rishi Sunak is exploring plans for an online sales tax to protect high street shops amid mounting competition from internet retailers.

Against a backdrop of rising retail job losses and store closures triggered by the coronavirus crisis, the chancellor is looking at taxing internet shopping as a potential replacement for business rates – the levy on companies based on the premises they occupy.

The possibility of a digital retail tax emerged in a call for evidence launched by the Treasury last week. The government is facing a hole in the public finances of more than £322bn as the coronavirus pandemic plunges Britain into the deepest recession for 300 years.

As part of the process – which is due to be completed by spring 2021 – a consultation paper said the Treasury was "exploring the potential strengths and weaknesses of alternative property and online taxes put forward as possible replacements for rates". According to the Times, Sunak is considering two types of online retail tax: a levy of about 2% on all goods bought online, raising £2bn a year; and a tax on consumer deliveries, which would also be expected to curb traffic and pollution.

Major high street retailers have been calling for an online sales tax as British shoppers increasingly buy goods online.

Tesco's chief executive, Dave Lewis, has previously called for the government to launch an "Amazon tax" on online sales to prevent more high street shops from going to the wall. Britain's biggest supermarket said a tax of 2% on online sales of physical goods would raise £1.5bn a year, enough to cut business rates by 20% for all retailers.

Late last year, the Commons Treasury committee called on the government to examine an online sales tax, while warning that the system of business rates was broken and placed an unfair burden on bricks-and-mortar retailers.

An online sales tax could, however, push up the cost of internet shopping at a time when households are coming under growing financial pressure and as many consumers stay away from the high street because of Covid-19. Online shopping has risen since the start of the pandemic to about £3 in every £10 spent in total, from about £2 before the crisis.

Such a tax would also come in addition to a digital services tax launched by the former chancellor, Philip Hammond, which came into force in April.

Sparking tensions with Donald Trump as the government looks to strike a post-Brexit US trade deal, the digital services tax is levied at 2% on the revenues of big technology firms such as Amazon, Google and Facebook that derive value from UK users. However, it raises relatively little: the government expects it to bring in around £300m this year.

[Tamas]

Hey, yes, levy a tax on everyone for daring to socially distance, so the death rattles of an obsolete way of shopping can be extended for a few years.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not entirely opposed to specific online taxes - especially given that the larger online retailers have aggressively structured their organisations so they don't pay corporation tax on their profits. So I think there is an attractiveness to taxing them for the services/goods they provide.

The bigger help for high street retailers etc from everything I've heard would be a rates cut.

[Tamas]

I'm not entirely opposed to specific online taxes - especially given that the larger online retailers have aggressively structured their organisations so they don't pay corporation tax on their profits. So I think there is an attractiveness to taxing them for the services/goods they provide.

The bigger help for high street retailers etc from everything I've heard would be a rates cut.

Sure but what is more likely? They reduce their profit margins and/or the sellers they give platform to do so, or they add the tax to their prices?

I understand if the times call for a tax raise, but I have two specific problems with this idea:
- it's declared purpose is to subsidise a form of commerce that is unable to sustain itself on the market (even before the pandemic there were bi-weekly QQ news about the death of the "high street" i.e. overpriced shops selling the same quality you get online)
- it would provide a financial incentive to get into close direct contact with others during a pandemic, for things that you do without doing so.

[Sheilbh]

Sure but what is more likely? They reduce their profit margins and/or the sellers they give platform to do so, or they add the tax to their prices?

Does that matter? I mean I wouldn't be surprised to see, say, a marketplace like Amazon or eBay pass on taxes to vendors. But it's the same as wtih the Digital Service Tax - it may lead to higher costs for users but the reasoning is a physical entity can't channel their profit through the Netherlands, Ireland and the Caribbean. So Amazon's figures (ie not the figures of tax campaigners) are that they've paid £220 million (this is largely profit tax and national insurance contributions etc) in a period when they made £11 billion. Taxing sales whether of services or goods is a way of catching the revenue they generate in this jurisdiction before it is funneled through those low-tax jurisdictions to become profit (no doubt in a jurisdiction with barely any corporation tax).

I understand if the times call for a tax raise, but I have two specific problems with this idea:
- it's declared purpose is to subsidise a form of commerce that is unable to sustain itself on the market (even before the pandemic there were bi-weekly QQ news about the death of the "high street" i.e. overpriced shops selling the same quality you get online)

And, as we've talked about before, part of this is because the high street is something people care about, is seen as a bell weather of their local economy and a place to go. People love the high street but not enough to shop there. Other measures that would be helpful would be banning cars/pedestrianising (there's loads of studies from all over about this and local shops absolutely oppose it because they worry it'll damage their trade but consistently see a big increase in sales if their street is pedestrianised with a nearby carpark instead) and trying to move to stuff like cafes, restaurants etc.

It is one of the things that worries me about the long-term impact of this pandemic that the "pull" factors of towns and cities are being devastated (cultural venues, hospitality sector etc) and people are nervous about public transport. I think from an environmental perspective it would be seriously damaging if a long-term consequence of this was a move away from density, to car based communities.

- it would provide a financial incentive to get into close direct contact with others during a pandemic, for things that you do without doing so.

Agreed - but that's also the same with the money off for dining in August. I suppose those businesses will still have the limits on how many people can be in at any time so it's probably not going to lead to a big crush (certainly where I am, all the pubs and shops still have people on the door counting people in and out and queues outside if they're "full").

[The Brain]

I don't think propping up failing business models is the way forward. But then I don't think Brexit is the way forward so I'm hardly in tune with the British voter.

[Tamas]

I think from an environmental perspective it would be seriously damaging if a long-term consequence of this was a move away from density, to car based communities.

I don't think so. Less commuting and less need to drive to 3 high streets of the 3 nearby towns to get the bloody thing you need should improve things. And in terms of deliveries there's incentive for the big players to reduce the amount of trips as well. e.g. Amazon encourages you to have your "Amazon day" selected. Just last week it was that we realised/remembered we needed a bunch of things, I ordered them piecemeal but since we were not in a hurry to get them I just added them to my selected day delivery and all the week's orders arrived together with the same delivery.

And for the tax savings of Amazon etc. of course it is not nice but on the other hand the advantage they gain over brick and mortar that way seem to be used to get a price advantage over brick and mortar, which means buyers (you know, everyone in the country) getting a cheaper and more convenient deal.

I am sorry if the so called small businesses (that often seem to be chains masquerading as champions of local small business) are getting obsolete, but that how it goes. When was the last time you went to the local cobbler to get your new pair of shoes, for example?

[Sheilbh]

But I don't think anyone is calling for a high street of baker, grocer, candlestick-maker. The move is to the high street as a venue and a location. As I say it's about a transformation of the high street to more retail that is about experience (so brick-and-mortar bookstores are doing quite well still), as well as venues - cafes, bars etc. As I say the point here is that people rightly or wrongly view the well-being of their community through the high street. So lots of empty stores with "for rent" signs have a wider negative impact.

You know we're not that country of green grocers and bakers etc. It's something that everyone likes when they go on holiday but at home - we've already moved very far along the big box supermarket and they're the people who are really in competition with the big online retailers. There's a slight exception for things that have had a boom because of the increase in people taking an interest in food, so there are probably more butchers than when I was a kid but they're fancy butchers now. There's never been a time in my life when you went to the butcher, the baker, the grocer etc - it's always been the big supermarket. It's the other stuff that's on the high street.

And for the tax savings of Amazon etc. of course it is not nice but on the other hand the advantage they gain over brick and mortar that way seem to be used to get a price advantage over brick and mortar, which means buyers (you know, everyone in the country) getting a cheaper and more convenient deal.

I always thought the big saving was not having much brick and mortar spread all over the country. Fine, if everyone gets a cheaper and more convenient deal, but we all have to pay more taxes if the retail sector basically no longer pays taxes on its profits. The alternative is we find some way to tax those businesses for the money they make in this country. Given that we'd need a global agreement on tax structuring for that to be based on corporation tax (and, as I say, at least two of the big jurisdictions used in this type of tax structuring are in the EU and the EU hasn't been able to deal with it - see the recent CJEU case which found in favour of Apple and Ireland) which is levied on profits, then a better way may be to levy a tax on revenues in this country.

In terms of the environment my point is wider and not about really about retail - it's more about hospitality. There's been a move to higher density areas here and in the US - so London has more people than it has ever had after the long decline since the 30s. Similarly there's been a move into the inner-cities of other cities which were increasingly emptying in the post-war era. A lot of that has been through changing fashions and tastes in hospitality and, to an extent, retail that have been the pull factors for cities. Those sectors are worst hit by this pandemic but were thriving in urban centres and there's a real risk that we go back to shitty empty city centres that lose their pull attraction plus a fear of public transport basically pushing people into owning a car etc.

One tiny example is a friend of mine who's moved out to his family in the countryside and rented a car now lockdown's lifted a bit because the things he likes about living in London - being able to see people, going for dinner, going to the pub, the theatre, cinema etc aren't really do-able anymore. So what's the point of being here? I don't think he'll be the only one.

For people like me who never learned to drive because I've always wanted to live in cities - I may have made a terrible mistake

[Josquius]

In terms of the environment my point is wider and not about really about retail - it's more about hospitality. There's been a move to higher density areas here and in the US - so London has more people than it has ever had after the long decline since the 30s. Similarly there's been a move into the inner-cities of other cities which were increasingly emptying in the post-war era. A lot of that has been through changing fashions and tastes in hospitality and, to an extent, retail that have been the pull factors for cities. Those sectors are worst hit by this pandemic but were thriving in urban centres and there's a real risk that we go back to shitty empty city centres that lose their pull attraction plus a fear of public transport basically pushing people into owning a car etc.

One tiny example is a friend of mine who's moved out to his family in the countryside and rented a car now lockdown's lifted a bit because the things he likes about living in London - being able to see people, going for dinner, going to the pub, the theatre, cinema etc aren't really do-able anymore. So what's the point of being here? I don't think he'll be the only one.

For people like me who never learned to drive because I've always wanted to live in cities - I may have made a terrible mistake

I'm hoping its not a complete flip. A return to a mid 20th century outlook on living is something we can ill-afford in the modern day.
I've got my fingers crossed we get more rail centred developments a bit further out rather than the usual motor-islands.

I think from an environmental perspective it would be seriously damaging if a long-term consequence of this was a move away from density, to car based communities.

I don't think so. Less commuting and less need to drive to 3 high streets of the 3 nearby towns to get the bloody thing you need should improve things. And in terms of deliveries there's incentive for the big players to reduce the amount of trips as well. e.g. Amazon encourages you to have your "Amazon day" selected. Just last week it was that we realised/remembered we needed a bunch of things, I ordered them piecemeal but since we were not in a hurry to get them I just added them to my selected day delivery and all the week's orders arrived together with the same delivery.

And for the tax savings of Amazon etc. of course it is not nice but on the other hand the advantage they gain over brick and mortar that way seem to be used to get a price advantage over brick and mortar, which means buyers (you know, everyone in the country) getting a cheaper and more convenient deal.

I am sorry if the so called small businesses (that often seem to be chains masquerading as champions of local small business) are getting obsolete, but that how it goes. When was the last time you went to the local cobbler to get your new pair of shoes, for example?

We've been over this before I'm certain.

Nobody is questioning that high street retail is on the way out.
The name of the game is stretching out their survival out so our cities can transition to the new world. Already things were happening a bit fast, shops dying quicker than new uses could fill their place, Corona has been a massive blow on top of this.

[garbon]

Are we assuming as a given that high streets are something worth saving?

[grumbler]

https://www.newsweek.com/prince-harry-prince-william-reported-inappropriate-use-over-350000-1519046

Why isn't this a bigger deal in the British media? Why do even leftist journos have to close rank around the royal family? They are shuffling around money meant for charity as if exchanging cash between their wallets.

I think that the main reason that the media aren't making a bigger deal about this is because there is no "there," there.  The difference between a charity and a non-profit is very technical, having to do with the source of the bulk of the organization's revenue.  Sussex Royal was a charity because it got most of its money through donations.  Travelyst is a non-profit because it gets most of its money from charging users.  So long as it is transparent, money can be moved tax-free from non-profits to charities and vice-versa.  Universities with endowments do this all of the time.

But it does make for good trolling when it has to do with the royals, and it is easy to get people to bite just by making up false claims.

[Josquius]

Are we assuming as a given that high streets are something worth saving?

They should be. Given my experiences in Japan and indeed the quality of life in car focused cities closer to home I dread to think of the UK heading that way.
I've not got anything to hand but I've read a lot of pretty convincing arguments that gel with this about their importance for social cohesion, attracting business clusters, etc.... I can't recall anything written this side of the 70s on why they're bad.

[garbon]

Are we assuming as a given that high streets are something worth saving?

They should be. Given my experiences in Japan and indeed the quality of life in car focused cities closer to home I dread to think of the UK heading that way.
I've not got anything to hand but I've read a lot of pretty convincing arguments that gel with this about their importance for social cohesion, attracting business clusters, etc.... I can't recall anything written this side of the 70s on why they're bad.

I wasn't coming at it from the angle that high streets are bad but was questioning the underlying assumption in all this that they are worth saving. After all, even without COVID-19, a lot of work was going to need to be put it to undertake these revitalization schemes.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - so I think it depends what you mean by the high street. I don't think it means the high street with traditional retail outlets, I think it means the sort of town centre. Certainly that's what I mean by it and why I don't really think the focus on retail is entirely right (or if it is the retail mix is shifting).

I think it is worth saving for political reasons. The state of the high street/town centre is a really important factor in how people perceive their local economy, I think it's got value for that sort of location wellbeing. But also I think it's a focus for community and identity in your town/village/city. I think you can probably very easily map the most shuttered up/for rent high streets with the "left behind" - and this isn't just a UK thing there are statistics in France in the communes that don't have a local shop being far more likely to vote RN for example. So if we actually want to address that economic inequality you also need to address the perception of inequality - and that goes through the high street.

I also think there are probably good economic arguments. Money spent on high streets are far likely to stay and circulate in the local community than money spent at, say, the big box supermarket or the retail park. Plus there's a virtuous cycle element - if there's a vibrant high street, that attracts businesses to rent in that area, which leads to more money being spent and so on. The alternative is more likely to be industrial parks, out of town retail centres etc.

Some of it will be about retail, but as I say, a lot will be about the more experience stuff because that's where consumers are moving. It's not about specific businesses that should be saved so much as a space.