Arab Spring, Round 2

[Admiral Yi]

Okay, and tell me how that fits with what Tamas said then.

You're right, Tamas jumped the rails a bit.

[Viking]

That wasn't what viking said and that's what a judge does.  Viking said "It is the people acting in congress", which is really a means not an objective.

Well if that isn't than neither is 'doing stuff for people'.  Pretty sure the ancient Sumerians didn't create all those governments to do that.

The ancient Sumerians in all likelyhood created government to build and maintain city walls and irrigation ditches as well as meter and control water use.

[Jacob]

Egyptian Kid explains why he's protesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QeDm2PrNV1I

[The Minsky Moment]

Cause it's circular logic.

No it's not.  Timmy wants a colony on Mars.  You want a bigger disability check.  The purpose of democracy is decide which one we, as a collective, will do.

The purpose of democracy is not plant a colony on Mars.

True.
But Tamas said government, not democracy.
And Raz is correct that the purpose of government is not just to decide what to do but to actually do it.

[The Minsky Moment]

They'll keep it up until the people of Egypt realize the most important truth about a democratic government. It isn't there to do stuff for the people. It is the people acting in congress. If the egyptian citizen think that he can just stand by while he grants the latest in a long line of coup victims to be license to try and run the country it will always fail.

I don't think you can conclude the the opposition to the Brotherhood government didn't understand that.  The complaint against Morsi was that he wasn't acting in concert according to the rules of the game but was absuing his authority to destroy all competing checks on his power and prepare the way for authoritarian, illiberal rule.

[Admiral Yi]

True.
But Tamas said government, not democracy.

Tamas made his comment in response to Viking's post about Egyptians not understanding the purpose of *democratic* government.

And Raz is correct that the purpose of government is not just to decide what to do but to actually do it.

Raz said the purpose of government is to provide services to its citizenry.  There have been governments throughout history that have not cared a fig about this.  The Khmer Rouge, to start with.

[DGuller]

Raz said the purpose of government is to provide services to its citizenry.  There have been governments throughout history that have not cared a fig about this.  The Khmer Rouge, to start with.

Not everything with a purpose ends up fulfilling it.

[Razgovory]

True.
But Tamas said government, not democracy.

Tamas made his comment in response to Viking's post about Egyptians not understanding the purpose of *democratic* government.

And Raz is correct that the purpose of government is not just to decide what to do but to actually do it.

Raz said the purpose of government is to provide services to its citizenry.  There have been governments throughout history that have not cared a fig about this.  The Khmer Rouge, to start with.

Oh I don't know, the Khmer Rouge was know for it's fairly extensive adult education program.  "Services" can be any number of things including defense against enemies or running a system of laws.

[Admiral Yi]

Not everything with a purpose ends up fulfilling it.

A government that does not operate under the same assumptions as you is not proof your assumptions are correct.

[Admiral Yi]

Oh I don't know, the Khmer Rouge was know for it's fairly extensive adult education program.  "Services" can be any number of things including defense against enemies or running a system of laws.

Sure, and they provided the valuable service of encouraging manual labor too.  And rezoning as well.

[DGuller]

Not everything with a purpose ends up fulfilling it.

A government that does not operate under the same assumptions as you is not proof your assumptions are correct.

My statement is not trying to prove anything, it just refutes your reasoning.  The purpose of cops is to protect the public, and that would still be true even if one of the cops turns out to be a serial killer.

[Admiral Yi]

My statement is not trying to prove anything, it just refutes your reasoning.  The purpose of cops is to protect the public, and that would still be true even if one of the cops turns out to be a serial killer.

It's circular.  The true purpose of government(tm) is to provide services; any government that does not do so is not a true government(tm). 

There have been plenty of governments throughout history and across the world that had a different conception of the purpose of government.

[Razgovory]

I didn't know that Dguller made that argument.

[Razgovory]

Oh I don't know, the Khmer Rouge was know for it's fairly extensive adult education program.  "Services" can be any number of things including defense against enemies or running a system of laws.

Sure, and they provided the valuable service of encouraging manual labor too.  And rezoning as well.

They did have a military right?  That's a service.

[DGuller]

I didn't know that Dguller made that argument.

Me neither.  IMO, DGuller was saying something completely different.