Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

Started by Josquius, February 20, 2016, 07:46:34 AM

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How would you vote on Britain remaining in the EU?

British- Remain
12 (11.8%)
British - Leave
7 (6.9%)
Other European - Remain
21 (20.6%)
Other European - Leave
6 (5.9%)
ROTW - Remain
36 (35.3%)
ROTW - Leave
20 (19.6%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Sheilbh

Yeah I'm not fully sure on that framing.

First of all there is a change from the first year under this government on this issue to previous years (even if it did hit a high in the last year of Sunak's premiership too):


I think it is right that this is largely because Labour have inherited a prison estate running at 99% capaciy, with outdate IT sytems so prison staff are calculating when someone should be released using the calendars and calculators on their desktops and the early release schemes are complicating those sums. That is exactly the argument David Lammy is making - I'm not sure that he's necessarily making it effectively, but that's his case. I'd just add that Shabana Mahmood's a very lucky general leaving the Ministry of Justice with her reputation enhanced for presiding over the prisons crisis and early release scheme without anything blowing up on her watch. Also the state of actual existing government IT infrastructure is a not insignificant part of why I am dubious about the capacity for the British state to build a digital ID system for anything less than hundreds of billions and many many years.

But on the broader point I often think of a Bagehot article by Duncan Robinson in the Economist a few years ago - just after Mr Bates came out. The basic argument he made was that chances are the next big scandal in British public life is already in the public domain. Most of the big scandals either of the "national scandal" frame or the individual political scandal relies on a lot of information that is already out there - in various statistics, official reports, declarations of earnings or conflicts etc. The thing that happens - and what's happened here - is how do you turn a dry as dust statistical report into a story - what's the line, what's the narrative (beginning, middle, end) or increasingly with fantastic reporting like you get from John Burn-Murdoch or Tom Calver turning the data into something visually arresting that can structure a story. I'd add that government does also do the document dump of releasing so much and trying to bury (perhaps not even noticing) the alarming stuff in the flood of data. There is a lot of noise and it takes either a data journalist, or a story to help identify the signal (incidentally this is where I think AI will actually be very helpful for journalists).
Let's bomb Russia!

Tamas

So have labour replaced prison officers en masse? Or drastically altered rules pertaining to prisoner release? No? Then this isn't their fault. Perhaps wardens and such are less motivated to keep the facade on now that there is no right-wing government to support.

Sheilbh

I suppose it depends what you mean by dramatically, but yes the government altered the rules in relation to prisoner release. There was a crisis in summer 2024 immediately after they came into office when we basically ran out of space. Mahmood as Justice Secretary got Treasury funding for new prisons but also had to introduce an early release scheme that in its first year released 40,000 people earlier than they would have been released under the existing scheme. I think basically cutting the time served requirement from 50% to 40% for certain crimes (I think some sexual and violent crimes were excluded). They also commissioned an independent review (inevitably :lol:) into sentencing in general and have accepted most of those recommendations so there is wider reform of sentencing.

Prisons were, with local authorities and the higher education sector going bust, one of the main items on Sue Gray's "shit list" of crises that could imminently explode at any time.

Also you might well be right in your assumption that prison officers are more likely to support a right-wing government. But I'd note that while they're banned from striking it's a heavily unionised sector that has been in various sorts of dispute with the government for a long time over austerity - basically combination of underfunding of prisons, overcrowding and pay freezes making their jobs and lives more difficult and morale hitting rock bottom. (I feel the morale and pay point is part of why in recent years there's been a few scandals of prison officers working for organised crime as well as the weirder trend of prison officers having affairs with inmates). But I don't think they're fucking up deliberately because they don't like the government any more than I think the story last year of the NHS spending more settling materniy care negligence claims than they spend on maternity care is because nurses and doctors were trying to sabotage the Tories.

Again as I say the line from the prison officers union is exactly that this sort of thing has been happening routinely and it's a consequence of underfunding.

I think heading down the path of public servants trying to undermine an elected government because they don't like their politics is not a fruitful path (and one that will vastly benefit the right and forces who want things privatised/outsourced). It's not fake news and it's not the deep state - it's a problem, a state failure and the government are responsible. In my view it's directly caused by austerity, which is an argument you can make but politics isn't a morality play. So the government needs to deal with it as best they can in the short term and make the decisions to increase growth to better fund public services and, in the long run in my view, increase state capacity.
Let's bomb Russia!

garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Josquius

Quote from: garbon on November 09, 2025, 02:50:08 PMThe BBC in shambles?

It's bizzaro world stuff. The BBC getting in trouble for not being right wing enough.

But it makes political sense to just accept the orange baby's whines and change the management. Hopefully the new person is careful but shifts the bbc back towards the centre and actual balance.
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Richard Hakluyt

It was a fairly disgraceful edit, I'm shocked that the BBC aired it.

Not very shocked though, tbe ruling class here seem to have had some sort of nervous collapse...... gross incompetence seems to reign in most areas of public endeavour.

Sheilbh

I agree. I think it's the sort of thing I'd expect a trainee to know is unacceptable. The criticisms of coverage of the Tavistock clinic and BBC Arabic also seem fair. Which you'd hope from an independent consultant who thought it would be a confidential report.

Slightly struck by the number of veteran BBC reporters who say they recognise the criticism - as well as those, like John Simpson or Nick Robinson, who don't.

On the ruling class I genuinely think they're like Bourbon supporters or Victorians stranded in the 20th century who are just incapable of comprehending that the world has changed (and that the material basis of their world view basically no longer exists). I fee like The Rest is Politics is possibly the most extreme version of this.
Let's bomb Russia!

Razgovory

It's remarkable that people actually defend this stuff.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Sheilbh

Ah good - I perceive that the Labour psychodrama has started again :bleeding:

Reeves and Starmer need to go - urgently (I think Reeves especially is an incredibly inept Chancellor) - but a bit like the promising to be whiter than white in government, I suspect they're probably regretting the "stability is the change" line.

I did genuinely hope though we'd get out of the wild briefing campaigns from around the cabinet table. But Streeting has been making his moves and now, according to Bloomberg, you've got someone in government briefing that ""Number Ten has gone into full bunker mode, turning on their most loyal cabinet members for absolutely no reason. Unfortunately there is a pattern of Keir's team briefing against his own people- they did it to Angela, Lisa, Lucy, now it's Wes's turn. A circular firing squad won't help the government out of the hole we're in." Meanwhile people close to Starmer have said they recently did a wargame with investors and were told that anyone oher than Starmer and Reeves would mean significantly higher borrowing costs and an economic crisis (I think Number 10 already ran this playbook once against Burnham - at a certain point it'll stop working because the markets will be pricing in the change and possibly prefer it to the "stability").

My main thought is that I also think this is incredibly irresponsible from Number 10. A bit like bringing up grooming gangs to attack Burnham - it feels like the sort of line that might make sense in factional party fights when you're in opposition and have no hope of winning but is reckless in government.

Having said all that - I don't like Streeting. If I were him this is probably his best chance/best timing (and he's clearly been making interventions for a leadership bid in the last two months). But I think I'd take Streeting over Starmer right now.
Let's bomb Russia!

Tamas


Richard Hakluyt

I was thinking to myself the other day, "why are people getting so cross about a continuity government?"; but then I reflected "that is precisely why they are so cross". I think we have a huge shakeup coming, I would like Labour to start that shakeup as the alternative is a shakeup starting in 2029 led by Farage (and I don't think he is up to the job).

Is there anyone who can implement a shakeup and get us out of this long, slow decline? Looking at the array of 3rd-raters I doubt it.

It would be helpful if they started thinking about the country more, and a bit less about their parties.

Josquius

Streeting a real monkey's paw Starmer replacement for sure.

Whatever happened to Burnham's move for the leadership?

Heard an interesting interview from Polanski the other day- he said the quiet bit out loud, of course he doesn't expect to be PM, but he hopes to scare Labour into moving left and actually doing something to benefit normal people.
I've been saying this for years. Labour trying to out-reform reform just isn't going to work. Losing voters to the left is a far bigger issue- not to mention that policies in this direction are actually the right thing that needs to be done.
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