Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Admiral Yi]

A concerted effort to kill every member of an ethnic group.

[The Minsky Moment]

Did NATO destroy the political and social institutions set up by the Taliban?

That's not the definition.  The Taliban were and are not a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

You are fighting a strawman.

[The Minsky Moment]

A concerted effort to kill every member of an ethnic group.

Did the Turks seek to kill every Armenian on Earth? Not sure the Armenian genocide would qualify under this definition.

The Nazis were still tinkering with the Madagascar idea into 1942 so was there no Nazi genocide of the Jews in 1941?

This definition seems too restrictive.

[The Minsky Moment]

One should consider the possibility that the UN definition was the product of some degree of careful thought and might be worth considering in good faith.

As a Jew and a Zionist for my whole life, I find it very uncomfortable to contemplate the possibility that the State of Israel could be engaging in conduct that qualifies as genocide.

But is the problem the definition of genocide or the conduct of the Israeli government?  It seems to me that focusing on the former is not the correct response.  It is not where the true problem lies.  You can quibble and definitionally parse Israel in or out of the genocide line as you wish but no amount of semantic gamesmanship changes the reality of what is happening. 

What is happening is objectively an outrage.
And comparing it to the US intervention in Afghanistan is absurd; it only highlights further how far out of civilized bounds Israel has gone.

[Razgovory]

Did NATO destroy the political and social institutions set up by the Taliban?

That's not the definition.  The Taliban were and are not a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

You are fighting a strawman.

That was the definition that Thrieval posted: The guy who coined it wanted to define it something like this: "the destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group" by means such as "the disintegration of [its] political and social institutions, of [its] culture, language, national feelings, religion, and [its] economic existence".

I pointed out that it was overbroad and I explained why.  Using that definition would probably make NATO culpable.

[Razgovory]

One should consider the possibility that the UN definition was the product of some degree of careful thought and might be worth considering in good faith.

As a Jew and a Zionist for my whole life, I find it very uncomfortable to contemplate the possibility that the State of Israel could be engaging in conduct that qualifies as genocide.

But is the problem the definition of genocide or the conduct of the Israeli government?  It seems to me that focusing on the former is not the correct response.  It is not where the true problem lies.  You can quibble and definitionally parse Israel in or out of the genocide line as you wish but no amount of semantic gamesmanship changes the reality of what is happening. 

What is happening is objectively an outrage.
And comparing it to the US intervention in Afghanistan is absurd; it only highlights further how far out of civilized bounds Israel has gone.

Is it outside he civilized bounds though?  It is the same as we have done in the recent past, the same as we participate in now, and is the same we will very likely do in the future.

Sorry, but I've become rather cynical in the last few years.  After seeing the failure of the Iraq war and the failure of Afghanistan I have become very unsympathetic to Islamic fanatics.  The cause of people who would kill me and drag my body through the streets is no longer one I am interested in championing.  

[Zoupa]

Children are starving, Raz.

[HVC]

Children are starving, Raz.

Yeah but they're the wrong kind of children for him to care.

[Razgovory]

Children are starving, Raz.

Then the Gazans should do what the Germans did, surrender.  Put down all their weapons and surrender.

[Razgovory]

Children are starving, Raz.

Yeah but they're the wrong kind of children for him to care.

I wonder how the reactions would be if we race swapped them.

[HVC]

Children are starving, Raz.

Yeah but they're the wrong kind of children for him to care.

I wonder how the reactions would be if we race swapped them.

By you? Pretty easy to guess.

If Palestinians were deliberating starving out Israelis, indiscriminately killing and arresting civilians I'd feel the same way I do now about Israel doing it. Same way I thought the oct 7 attacks were deplorable. Same way I denounce when Hamas launches missiles. I don't sit there shrugging it off with the feeling like they deserve it, or justifying it because they all believe in blood libel something something. I don't feel I can say the same about you.

[HVC]

I think I'll take a break from this thread. It depresses me. I couldn't even finish that documentary I mentioned early. Puts me in a bad space.

[Zoupa]

I think I'll take a break from this thread. It depresses me. I couldn't even finish that documentary I mentioned early. Puts me in a bad space.

 

[Zoupa]

Children are starving, Raz.

Then the Gazans should do what the Germans did, surrender.  Put down all their weapons and surrender.

You can blame Hamas for a lot of things, not this one though.

[The Minsky Moment]

Is it outside he civilized bounds though? 

Yes.

The cause of people who would kill me and drag my body through the streets is no longer one I am interested in championing. 

I don't think that's a cause you should ever have championed