Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Sophie Scholl]

I don't think we have any Saudi apologists either for what its worth. I agree with HVC. Things tend to get more protesting and coverage when there are vocal and numerous proponents on both sides.

[grumbler]

The issue with selective protesting is the same as with selective law enforcement.  It raises questions as to whether the law is being enforced out of principle, or because it is a convenient tool to achieve an unrelated end.  It's not always whataboutism to dig into why things are done selectively.

The issue with selective protesting is the same as the issue with selective prosecution. The DA knows that he cannot prosecute every crime, so he focuses on those crimes where he likely can secure a conviction. If he does not prosecute a suspected murderer because of lack of evidence, that doesn't mean he approves of murder.

Yes, one can look for any kind of reasoning behind the decision to join a protest, but Occam's Razor suggests that the reason most likely is what that person says it is.

[Razgovory]

If nobody defends the Saudis actions in Yemen, why do our governments help them commit atrocities?  It's not like the public doesn't have the ability to influence events there and the war has been going on for a decade.  Saudi Arabia is more reliant on US weapons than the Israelis are.

As Dguller pointed out this sort of selective protest is like selective prosecution, and sometimes you can tell from that what the protesters priorities are:

Scene: Texas 1910

Man: How come you are arresting me for assault?  They are lynching a guy across the street!  Go do something about it!

Police: We have limited resources.  The police can only do so much.

Man: There are police over there!  They are part of the lynch mob!

Police:  Yeah, well...

End

If Occam's razor suggests the reason for people joining protests then let us listen to what the protesters say:  They say they are fighting white supremacy and colonialism.  Protesting Saudi Arabia does not further the cause of fighting white supremacy or Colonialism.  The Saudis are the correct color, they belong in the region.  The Israelis are not the correct color.  They don't belong.  The issue here is primarily about race. 

[HVC]

You think America/Americans adore brown people so much they're willing to forgive them their vices? Kind of goes against 300 years of American history and your own lynching  example. Unless the guy being lynched was white, I guess. I know you feel for the plight of the poor maligned white man, but that's a weird way of seeing the world. And funnily enough I agree with you on some of your views of prejudices towards white people, but I think you take that view to way too far.

[Zoupa]

If nobody defends the Saudis actions in Yemen, why do our governments help them commit atrocities?  It's not like the public doesn't have the ability to influence events there and the war has been going on for a decade.  Saudi Arabia is more reliant on US weapons than the Israelis are.

As Dguller pointed out this sort of selective protest is like selective prosecution, and sometimes you can tell from that what the protesters priorities are:

Scene: Texas 1910

Man: How come you are arresting me for assault?  They are lynching a guy across the street!  Go do something about it!

Police: We have limited resources.  The police can only do so much.

Man: There are police over there!  They are part of the lynch mob!

Police:  Yeah, well...

End

If Occam's razor suggests the reason for people joining protests then let us listen to what the protesters say:  They say they are fighting white supremacy and colonialism.Protesting Saudi Arabia does not further the cause of fighting white supremacy or Colonialism.  The Saudis are the correct color, they belong in the region.  The Israelis are not the correct color.  They don't belong.  The issue here is primarily about race.

I think we have a term for this  "Whataboutism".

[frunk]

I'm assuming we'll need to form a protest administration system to make sure protests are spread across all equally worthy causes.  On an individual level we'll have to turn away people who might want to protest the same cause as us to make sure we don't draw too much attention.

[Razgovory]

You think America/Americans adore brown people so much they're willing to forgive them their vices? Kind of goes against 300 years of American history and your own lynching  example. Unless the guy being lynched was white, I guess. I know you feel for the plight of the poor maligned white man, but that's a weird way of seeing the world. And funnily enough I agree with you on some of your views of prejudices towards white people, but I think you take that view to way too far.

The people protesting Israel aren't Americans living in 1725, they are mostly left-wings in the Americas and Europe, and Muslims in 2025.  And yes, those people more than willing to forgive brown people their vices.  If those vices get out of hand, they and attack Europe, then that forgiveness will go away as we saw with ISIS.  I remember reading an article about how someone who had just come from Syria was reporting on the attrocities committed by ISIS, but found his British colleagues unconcerned.  They were laser focused on Israeli checkpoint system, but largely ambivalent about photos of old women shot and thrown in shell holes because they couldn't be sold as slaves.  The Israel issue revolves around identity, and the antizionists use that sort of language all the time.  They are fighting "White supremacy", "Zionism is Racism", "Go back to Poland"  "Israel is an apartheid state".  Hell, they typically define themselves as "anti racists".  Being anti-racism isn't bad, but they define racism in way that only certain colors of people can be racist.  Their definition of racism is, often by itself, racist.  The point is that the focus revolves around Identity, just as Islamic and Far Right opposition to Israel revolves around Identity though the focus is slightly different.

There is an article I've been meaning to post about this that covers a study on this very issue.  I was going to give it it's own thread but I think i will put it in the Democrats thread.

[Razgovory]

I'm assuming we'll need to form a protest administration system to make sure protests are spread across all equally worthy causes.  On an individual level we'll have to turn away people who might want to protest the same cause as us to make sure we don't draw too much attention.

It kinda gives the game away when you are really only concerned about the doings of what type of people.

[Zoupa]

It also gives the game away when you are wholly unconcerned with civilian collateral victims as long as it's the IDF doing it. You're very concerned about Yemenis and old women shot and thrown in shell holes, as long as the perpetrators are the right color.

[Josquius]

Strange turnabout from Raz. I recall earlier he felt it important to go on about how many Israelis were of Arab descent, now they're white people?

I don't really care what colour they are. It's the actions that matter.

[Admiral Yi]

I missed the part of the conversation when Raz said he's wholly unconcerned about Palestinian collateral damage.

[Razgovory]

Strange turnabout from Raz. I recall earlier he felt it important to go on about how many Israelis were of Arab descent, now they're white people?

I don't really care what colour they are. It's the actions that matter.

They are perceived as white, while this is not strictly speaking true.  It is true in the minds of the antizionists.  If it is the actions that matter, How did everyone decided that the Israelis are the ones to protest?  You'd think that it would be spread out more if was just based on actions.  Certainly the Israelis aren't the only ones who engage in actions worth protesting.  Yet it is the only country in the Middle East people demand be destroyed and it's population either removed or made into a vulnerable, disarmed minority.  Hell, even those that call for America destroyed don't normally demand that the population lose it's right to self determination or that be incorporated into another state.  That is really strange.

You say you don't care what color they are, but I got to wonder sometimes...

[Zoupa]

I missed the part of the conversation when Raz said he's wholly unconcerned about Palestinian collateral damage.

I haven't seen one post where Raz states he's concerned about Palestinian collateral damage. I'm happy to be proven wrong if such posts exist.

[Razgovory]

I missed the part of the conversation when Raz said he's wholly unconcerned about Palestinian collateral damage.

I consider collateral damage to be an unfortunate side affect of war.  The same when we killed Germans civilians in WW2.  Or Iraqis or Syrians or Koreans, or Japanese, or whoever.  But when it comes to Palestinians the rules are somewhat different apparently.  As Zoupa said, he was fine with the Morgenthau plan to starve large numbers of Germans to death after the war.  Certainly those people aren't any more or less human than Palestinians.

In truth, I don't believe anyone thinks the Palestinians are special.  If an Arab power was killing them, it would not provoke breathless reporting or mass protests.  And certainly if the Palestinians were blowing up parts of Europe there would be little sympathy for them, we saw that with ISIS.  The sympathy for Palestine is based on the antipathy people have for the guys fighting them.

[Razgovory]

I missed the part of the conversation when Raz said he's wholly unconcerned about Palestinian collateral damage.

I haven't seen one post where Raz states he's concerned about Palestinian collateral damage. I'm happy to be proven wrong if such posts exist.

Haven't seen a post by you where you showed any sympathy for the people killed on Oct 7th orr Josq either.  Mostly he argue about his poor understanding of the word "Semite" and his bewilderment that Hamas would do something like this.

You do have this quote though:

I see Israel has turned off the electricity, gas and water to Gaza. I was surprised there was any cross border of that stuff to begin with.

Once the military operation is over, they should seal that border completely. I don't see why Israel should provide anything to Gaza ever again.

Hey, you said it, not me.  https://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,16754.275.html#quickreply_anchor