Israel-Hamas War 2023

[dist]

If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.

That is the main reason I stopped going on social media. I know (knew?) a few Palestinians from Jordan and couldn't stand seeing the videos, pictures and messages they were reposting. Which is an infinitely small proportions of everything they were seeing. I had already started to pull back in 2023, during the previous bombing operation. All their pain, fear and anger, as well as all the senseless horror, shortly followed by more of the same coming from the Armenians I know, proved too much for me.

[crazy canuck]

a racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.

No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.

[Razgovory]

a racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.

No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.

The convention seems to suggest otherwise...  I have noticed you pointedly avoid the other stuff about countries that support these groups or just soldiers fighting.  Or the stuff about scale.

[Razgovory]

Anyway, Zoupa you want my stuff or not?  I can send pictures!  Currently there are ants everywhere, so it will be pictures of my stuff with ants on it.  I hope you don't mind.

[crazy canuck]

a racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.

No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.

The convention seems to suggest otherwise...  I have noticed you pointedly avoid the other stuff about countries that support these groups or just soldiers fighting.  Or the stuff about scale.

The key to understanding the Convention is the intent tied to the actions.  You bring up a number of examples that do not do that.  So I am not sure what the point would be to repeat the same thing I have been saying all along in response to each of your examples.

[Alcibiades]

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong.  And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.

If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.  We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).

I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians.  Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that.  Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished.  If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.

You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident.

Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight.  Trash.

[Zoupa]

Anyway, Zoupa you want my stuff or not?  I can send pictures!  Currently there are ants everywhere, so it will be pictures of my stuff with ants on it.  I hope you don't mind.

I'm more interested in you actually answering the question:

Honestly, I think it is.  If you violate the laws of war and someone gets killed as result, it's your fault.

[Razgovory]

a racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.

No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.

The convention seems to suggest otherwise...  I have noticed you pointedly avoid the other stuff about countries that support these groups or just soldiers fighting.  Or the stuff about scale.

The key to understanding the Convention is the intent tied to the actions.  You bring up a number of examples that do not do that.  So I am not sure what the point would be to repeat the same thing I have been saying all along in response to each of your examples.

Yes, intent.  If you can establish that a person intended to destroy a group of people in whole or in part it is genocide.  I think that you establish that in several of the cases.  If statements of members of the Israeli government is enough to establish intent of genocide than certainly finding similar statements by members of the military or government of Iran would indicate they are guilty of genocide as well.

The problem again is still scale, a person who intends to kill all of a group but manages to kill only 10 would still count as genocide.

[Razgovory]

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong.  And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.

If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.  We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).

I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians.  Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that.  Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished.  If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.

You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident.

Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight.  Trash.

What, we didn't do that in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam?  How do we deal with an enemy that surrounds himself with civilians who won't or can't evacuate and is currently firing on US civilian targets?  Please, I'd like to know.

[Alcibiades]

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong.  And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.

If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.  We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).

I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians.  Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that.  Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished.  If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.

You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident.

Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight.  Trash.

What, we didn't do that in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam?  How do we deal with an enemy that surrounds himself with civilians who won't or can't evacuate and is currently firing on US civilian targets?  Please, I'd like to know.

Well, to start it is no longer WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and hasn't been for 52 years plus.

o Using human shields is a war crime and not behind the war-crimes that Israel is perpetrating.
o The enemy violating LOAC doesn't absolve us of our obligations and we are still required to, shocking as this may be if you are Russian, Israeli, or Raz, not commit war-crimes.
o We keep in mind necessity and proportionality.  If it is a private on the ground his life needs to be in imminent danger. If it is an airstrike/drone strike there are JAGs in the room clearing everything with authority still going through the commanding officer, including culpability.

Regardless, it is our ROE/Doctrine to minimize and take all feasible precautions to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While some, such as SECDEF, believe we need to be able to have more flexibility to accomplish our missions and limit friendly casualties, our efforts to be humane give us credibility and the moral high-ground when compared to the Hamas types.

It also makes sleeping at night a little easier.

[Razgovory]

Anyway, Zoupa you want my stuff or not?  I can send pictures!  Currently there are ants everywhere, so it will be pictures of my stuff with ants on it.  I hope you don't mind.

I'm more interested in you actually answering the question:

Honestly, I think it is.  If you violate the laws of war and someone gets killed as result, it's your fault.

Think you messed up there chief.  That's not a question.  But I know what you want, you want to know how much Hamas can abuse the laws of war before it catches up with them.  Honestly, not very much.  I guess I'd play along with the proportionality game for a while.  The Israelis do.  2 civilians to get one fighter, 10 for a rocket site, 100 for a command and control or ammo dump, etc.  But honestly, after years of cynical use of strategic child protective barriers I'd stop giving a shit.  I would have a hard to justifying why I should let some religious fantastic kill me because he is more of an asshole than I am.

To turn it around imagine a breakaway state in Maine full of Nazis firing rockets at your hometown.  The Nazi believe want every one of you to live under the merciful wing of the 4th Reich, and their charter says they are really for social justice and religious tolerance, the mass murders and rapes notwithstanding.  They fire rockets from hospitals, store their ammunition in apartment buildings, and gleefully use children as shields.  How many people in Quebec should you sacrifice to protect those poor Aryan children from harm?

[Razgovory]

Well, to start it is no longer WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and hasn't been for 52 years plus.

o Using human shields is a war crime and not behind the war-crimes that Israel is perpetrating.
o The enemy violating LOAC doesn't absolve us of our obligations and we are still required to, shocking as this may be if you are Russian, Israeli, or Raz, not commit war-crimes.
o We keep in mind necessity and proportionality.  If it is a private on the ground his life needs to be in imminent danger. If it is an airstrike/drone strike there are JAGs in the room clearing everything with authority still going through the commanding officer, including culpability.

Regardless, it is our ROE/Doctrine to minimize and take all feasible precautions to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While some, such as SECDEF, believe we need to be able to have more flexibility to accomplish our missions and limit friendly casualties, our efforts to be humane give us credibility and the moral high-ground when compared to the Hamas types.

It also makes sleeping at night a little easier.

Right, it's not something we are doing right now.  But we have done it in the past and we very well may in the future. We don't have a conscript army and we aren't being hit daily by enemy rockets, factors that might change things.  As far as I know, and these doctrines are fairly secret, the US plan for being hit with rockets from a foreign power is to turn the entire enemy country into radioactive slag.

[crazy canuck]

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong.  And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.

If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.  We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).

I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians.  Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that.  Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished.  If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.

You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident.

Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight.  Trash.

What, we didn't do that in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam?  How do we deal with an enemy that surrounds himself with civilians who won't or can't evacuate and is currently firing on US civilian targets?  Please, I'd like to know.

Well, to start it is no longer WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and hasn't been for 52 years plus.

o Using human shields is a war crime and not behind the war-crimes that Israel is perpetrating.
o The enemy violating LOAC doesn't absolve us of our obligations and we are still required to, shocking as this may be if you are Russian, Israeli, or Raz, not commit war-crimes.
o We keep in mind necessity and proportionality.  If it is a private on the ground his life needs to be in imminent danger. If it is an airstrike/drone strike there are JAGs in the room clearing everything with authority still going through the commanding officer, including culpability.

Regardless, it is our ROE/Doctrine to minimize and take all feasible precautions to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While some, such as SECDEF, believe we need to be able to have more flexibility to accomplish our missions and limit friendly casualties, our efforts to be humane give us credibility and the moral high-ground when compared to the Hamas types.

It also makes sleeping at night a little easier.

I am very thankful there are people like you in the world.

[Zoupa]

Yes, I don't the Razes of the world should be anywhere near ROE drafting/approval etc.

Anyways, I've got my answer Raz. I think I'm done on this subject.

[Razgovory]

Guess I should have made you answer my questions before I answered yours.  Oh well, I have a feeling I know how you would answer.
Hamas kills 1200 people, . "So how many non-Hamas Palestinians are you cool with killing?"


Trump gets elected "You made your bed"

https://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,11775.msg1470216.html#msg1470216

Fuck man, you were demanding I use violence because of Trump.  You don't expect shit from Palestinians when they are dragging corpses through the streets and watching kids kick the bodies.  Goddamn double standards and bigotry of low expectations.