Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Josquius]

Israel is a western democracy and an ally of the US and co.
They generally speak decent English and in the main cities live lives that look little different to the west - which is ironic that this provides cover as these are generally progressive Israelis who don't approve of the government's shit.
There's also a lot of religious right silliness from America about the chosen people and the apocolypse and all that.
That's why there's a double standard and Israel gets away with far more than other countries.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

More "no TV cameras, no news."
This insistence any criticism of Israel must be motivated by anti semitism stuff grows very boring.

just as boring as all the pro-palestinian crap and accompanying 'Juden raus' behaviour at our institutions.

[Threviel]

There's no doubt that a lot of criticism against Israel has anti-semitic roots and perhaps the explanation for the amount of focus on Israel compared to, say Sudan, China or Russia, is because of anti-semitism.

Nevertheless ethnic cleansing is rarely, if ever, ok and there's a lot of criticism to be levelled at Israel for its current actions, at least their actions since the US started supporting ethnic cleansing.

[Razgovory]

Israel is a western democracy and an ally of the US and co.
They generally speak decent English and in the main cities live lives that look little different to the west - which is ironic that this provides cover as these are generally progressive Israelis who don't approve of the government's shit.
There's also a lot of religious right silliness from America about the chosen people and the apocolypse and all that.
That's why there's a double standard and Israel gets away with far more than other countries.

What part of the mixture of Middle Eastern Jews and Eastern European Jews make them "Western"?  By Western do you mean, "perceived as white"?  Because I see a lot of the opposition to Israel framed as "fighting white supremacy".  The Saudis are American allies and they seem to get away with much more.  The Double standard is that Israel gets called out on it and other countries do not.

I do think the American angle is important, for much of the left opposing Israel is about opposing the US by proxy.  That is certainly how the Soviets saw it, and for some bizarre reason people still follow the Soviet line, on this.

[viper37]

That kind of land with multiples of different peoples in it would be more stable if ruled by a distant emperor or the like.

Prevents any one group from being in charge which would be intolerable to the others.

Basically, behave or Legio Fretensis will be there to restore the Emperor's Peace.

It didn't work better under Roman rule.  They had to expel the Jews from a large area to have peace.

[Duque de Bragança]

That kind of land with multiples of different peoples in it would be more stable if ruled by a distant emperor or the like.

Prevents any one group from being in charge which would be intolerable to the others.

Basically, behave or Legio Fretensis will be there to restore the Emperor's Peace.

It didn't work better under Roman rule.  They had to expel the Jews from a large area to have peace.

Didn't work better? Wrong, cf. the roads. 

Ethnic cleansing does work against terrorism, cf. Zealots/Sicarii. Unfair for civilians though.
Well, even without terrorists cf. Armenians being ethnically cleansed of Nagorny Karabakh.

[DGuller]

That kind of land with multiples of different peoples in it would be more stable if ruled by a distant emperor or the like.

Prevents any one group from being in charge which would be intolerable to the others.

Basically, behave or Legio Fretensis will be there to restore the Emperor's Peace.

It didn't work better under Roman rule.  They had to expel the Jews from a large area to have peace.

[Legbiter]

There's no doubt that a lot of criticism against Israel has anti-semitic roots and perhaps the explanation for the amount of focus on Israel compared to, say Sudan, China or Russia, is because of anti-semitism.

That is because Europe are stuck with millions of unproductive Islamoids who will be a tax burden on the State coffers for as long as their bloodlines continue...

Just look at the ugliest example, Mirpuri Paki Muslims in the North of England. They are allowed to conduct unlimited tribal raids on Norf FC natives.

Roman and Ottoman empires would have sent legions over to crucify all of them for the affront to Pax Romana. 

[Threviel]

Aren't you Icelandic? You seem to get your news from some weird places.

[Valmy]

There's no doubt that a lot of criticism against Israel has anti-semitic roots and perhaps the explanation for the amount of focus on Israel compared to, say Sudan, China or Russia, is because of anti-semitism.

Nevertheless ethnic cleansing is rarely, if ever, ok and there's a lot of criticism to be levelled at Israel for its current actions, at least their actions since the US started supporting ethnic cleansing.

Well that is the issue.

The reason Israel and China are more of a concern for me is because Sudan and Russia are pretty much pariah states for what they have done. Sure maybe we should be doing more, but we aren't doing nothing. Whereas China and Israel just get away with whatever. We even pretend Israel is some kind of close ally of ours, though I am not sure how they are big assets to our interests.

[The Minsky Moment]

Ethnic cleansing does work against terrorism, cf. Zealots/Sicarii.

The Jews were wiped from the land of Israel, never to return  . . .

[Razgovory]

There's no doubt that a lot of criticism against Israel has anti-semitic roots and perhaps the explanation for the amount of focus on Israel compared to, say Sudan, China or Russia, is because of anti-semitism.

Nevertheless ethnic cleansing is rarely, if ever, ok and there's a lot of criticism to be levelled at Israel for its current actions, at least their actions since the US started supporting ethnic cleansing.

Well that is the issue.

The reason Israel and China are more of a concern for me is because Sudan and Russia are pretty much pariah states for what they have done. Sure maybe we should be doing more, but we aren't doing nothing. Whereas China and Israel just get away with whatever. We even pretend Israel is some kind of close ally of ours, though I am not sure how they are big assets to our interests.

Please add in Azerbaijan and Saudi Arabia. They also get away with whatever.  Our relations with Sudan would be basically the same without Darfur.  They are an anarchy that produces nothing we want.  It's like Somalia.  Russia really only became a problem with the invasion of Ukraine, we didn't give a damn about Chechnya.

[Threviel]

And if the outcry about the Chechens and Uyghurs were proportional to the outcry about Palestine then Israel ought to get far less attention relative Russia and China. And if Ukraine is added then it's a few worse crime so far than whatever Israel is doing.

I suspect that it's partly anti-semitism, its roots go deep, both on the left and right and in muslim circles. And partly that, for all its faults, Israel is a democracy. Journalists can go there and create content, they can't really go to China or Russia.

Why the US treats Israel as a close ally is a mystery on geopolitical grounds. Israel has been nothing but a drain on resources and they've been an awful ally to the US. Focusing on their own agenda, often to the detriment of US interests.

[crazy canuck]

Israel gets more attention because it is entirely dependent on United States support.  Why the United States supports Israel, the way it does has a lot to do with it own internal politics and the power of the groups which require the United States to do so.  Those groups are not like-minded.  There is the religious right of the United States that has an odd notion that they need to bring up about the end of the world so that Jesus can come and the only way for that to happen is for the temple to be rebuilt.  That group is of course very different from the Jewish populations within the United States that have their own reasons for supporting the state of Israel.

[Razgovory]

A large number of Israelis are also American citizens, so that is one reason for the alliance.  Another is that the Arabs were Soviet allies, they were anti-Western because they had been under British and French rule for so long.  As a result they didn't like us that much.  The Israelis would ally with us and they were not anti-Western.  This split, the Soviet backed Arabs and the Western backed Israelis is one of the major fault lines here.  Left-wing groups became anti-Israel because the Soviets were anti-Israel (and if they weren't explicitly following the Soviet line, they were implicitly following it by simply opposing the Western backed Israelis).  The Soviet Union is long gone, but the antizionist movement goes on, and has merged into contemporary left-wing politics.  Which is why you have the weird situation where Trans activists are siding with religious fundamentalists. Make no mistake though, if the Israelis had sided with the Soviets, this would not be considered a genocide, at least on the left.  It would just be another war.