Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

Cause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory.  In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here.  Colonialism is structure not an event.  Simply being here is part of the structure.  It's not an act, it's part of being.  You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians.  We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people.  Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.

  Ok well that is all very interesting theory. But I guess I am more interested in real world shit than whatever this is.

Colonialism is bad. We shouldn't invade places where other people live and take over. We should stop doing that. And we probably should stop breaking our treaties we have with the remaining indigenous peoples on their reservations. We should stop being assholes now, that would be cool.

I don't think having 95% of the Western Hemisphere leave is a viable act.

Obviously Israel is a little weird in this particular context since, you know, 50% of Jewish Israelis are descended from Jews in Iran, Iraq, Yemen, North Africa, and locals. I don't know if that easily maps on to what we normally think of when we think of settler-colonialism.

But even if it did, my issues here have exactly zero to do with any of that. I think this easily maps onto Balkan ethnic warfare and unless we are going back to the Ottoman Empire, not any settler-colonialism going on there.

So why are you so obsessed with this theory? I don't think you need some fancy theory to demonstrate that colonialism is bad and people shouldn't do it.

[Razgovory]

Why should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't?  You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.

So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?

Not if we beat them back.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?

[Zoupa]

Why should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't?  You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.

So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?

Not if we beat them back.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?

So uh your comeback is might is right?

[Valmy]

Are Palestinian groups guilty of genocide?  They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.

Guilty?

No. But a few have stated their intent. Though I think the PLO just reminds Palestinians of the happy fact that at their version of the end times Muslims are going to hunt down and kill all the Jews. But at least that one requires them waiting around for divine intervention first.

This is an ethnic conflict. If I was in charge of Palestine at any point since 1991, at which point any realistic chance for victory was gone, I would be trying to surrender and get the best terms I can for my people. But I probably would have been assassinated by nutcases as my reward for my efforts.

You know, like Yitzhak Rabin when he tried to make peace.

Likewise it has always been my opinion that creation of a Palestinian State in peace with Israel would require the intervention of an outside military force to disarm the militias and guarantee security for the formation of a functional civil society. I always thought the Gaza experiment was doomed for failure, even if they hadn't elected Hamas back in 2006 or whenever that was. The Palestinians needed help if that was going to work but they didn't get it.

And here we are. It doesn't take a huge number of fanatics to undermine a peace process. That have succeeded and only death and destruction await the losers who are almost certainly the Palestinians. And I guess it has come to this, I just don't want any part of it.

[Razgovory]

Cause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory.  In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here.  Colonialism is structure not an event.  Simply being here is part of the structure.  It's not an act, it's part of being.  You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians.  We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people.  Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.

  Ok well that is all very interesting theory. But I guess I am more interested in real world shit than whatever this is.

Colonialism is bad. We shouldn't invade places where other people live and take over. We should stop doing that. And we probably should stop breaking our treaties we have with the remaining indigenous peoples on their reservations.

I don't think having 95% of the Western Hemisphere leave is a viable act.

Obviously Israel is a little weird in this particular context since, you know, 50% of Jewish Israelis are descended from Jews in Iran, Iraq, Yemen, North Africa, and locals. I don't know if that easily maps on to what we normally think of when we think of settler-colonialism.

But even if it did, my issues here have exactly zero to do with any of that. I think this easily maps onto Balkan ethnic warfare and unless we are going back to the Ottoman Empire, not any settler-colonialism going on there.

So why are you so obsessed with this theory? I don't think you need some fancy theory to demonstrate that colonialism is bad and people shouldn't do it.

I read up on it because it is animating theory of many of the protests.  It is very much in vogue, especially among the elite schools.  So it is having a effect on the real world.  All of us leaving the Americans is not desirable, we don't do it because we don't want to.  Not many people are so committed to social justice that they would voluntary give up all their property and move to another continent.  Even something like 5-10% tax on all income made on stolen land, which is entirely viable, is not seen as desirable.

I am strongly opposed to this ideology because it undermines our right to be here.  It also makes things like Trumpism more likely.  If you teach leftists that America is a crime, that is irredeemable, they aren't going to work toward reforming it.  Why vote for Copmala and Genocide Joe over Donald Trump.  They are just as bad.

[Razgovory]

Why should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't?  You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.

So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?

Not if we beat them back.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?

So uh your comeback is might is right?

What answer do you have?  Perhaps the problem with Russia is that we haven't explained our superior morality well enough.  We should stop sending weapons to Ukraine and start sending philosophers to Russia.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression.

[Zoupa]

Why should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't?  You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.

So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?

Not if we beat them back.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?

So uh your comeback is might is right?

What answer do you have?  Perhaps the problem with Russia is that we haven't explained our superior morality well enough.  We should stop sending weapons to Ukraine and start sending philosophers to Russia.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression.

I'm not sure why I need to justify anything to you?

As to the other subject, I think invading other people's lands, displacing them, killing them, kidnapping their children etc. is not good or desirable, regardless of who does it. It's not exactly rocket science here buddy. Ukraine being invaded and Palestinians getting displaced and killed is happening right now. We can do something right now to stop it. You keep harping back to the colonization of the Americas as a great gotcha. It isn't.

And you don't answer why it's ok for Israel to displace and colonize the West Bank right now, but it's not ok for russians to displace and colonize Ukraine.

[Josquius]

Attempted genocide sure.
But surely there's some bar where you have to have a measure of success? Or else there's so many serial killers could qualify.

If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.

"Yes" or "no."

Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.

Again, I think you misunderstand the definition of genocide.

The act of killing a bunch of Jewish teenagers at an outdoor concert and taking others hostage is an act which falls under the definition.

The intent of Hamas also falls within the definition.

I don't know what you think genocide is, but it's not how the United Nations convention defines it.

Really?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.

[Razgovory]

Why should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't?  You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.

So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?

Not if we beat them back.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?

So uh your comeback is might is right?

What answer do you have?  Perhaps the problem with Russia is that we haven't explained our superior morality well enough.  We should stop sending weapons to Ukraine and start sending philosophers to Russia.  Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression.

I'm not sure why I need to justify anything to you?

As to the other subject, I think invading other people's lands, displacing them, killing them, kidnapping their children etc. is not good or desirable, regardless of who does it. It's not exactly rocket science here buddy. Ukraine being invaded and Palestinians getting displaced and killed is happening right now. We can do something right now to stop it. You keep harping back to the colonization of the Americas as a great gotcha. It isn't.

And you don't answer why it's ok for Israel to displace and colonize the West Bank right now, but it's not ok for russians to displace and colonize Ukraine.

I never said it was okay for the Israelis to displace people in the West Bank right now.   I was talking about settler colonial theory and then you started talking about becoming my room mate or something.  

[Zoupa]

I'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.

[HVC]

I'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.

He thinks displacing people in the West Bank is bad, but also thinks killing and displacing in people in gaza is fine. So, half agree I guess.

[crazy canuck]

Really?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.

No.  I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview.  You want to change the definition to conform to yours.

[Razgovory]

I'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.

He thinks displacing people in the West Bank is bad, but also thinks killing and displacing in people in gaza is fine. So, half agree I guess.

I think that fighting a war is acceptable.  People do get killed in war.  It is one of the defining characteristics of it.  CC has raised an interesting point.  As Oct 7th was a genocide the Israelis could have held their fire and asked the UN to come in arrest Hamas and disarm the militia.  UN member states were probably just chomping at the bit to send their soldiers to police Gaza.

[Razgovory]

Really?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.

No.  I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview.  You want to change the definition to conform to yours.

You could explain your position instead of acting all high and mighty.  You are endorsing a position that is, on the face of it, absurd.

[HVC]

I'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.

He thinks displacing people in the West Bank is bad, but also thinks killing and displacing in people in gaza is fine. So, half agree I guess.

I think that fighting a war is acceptable.  People do get killed in war.  It is one of the defining characteristics of it.  CC has raised an interesting point.  As Oct 7th was a genocide the Israelis could have held their fire and asked the UN to come in arrest Hamas and disarm the militia.  UN member states were probably just chomping at the bit to send their soldiers to police Gaza.

You call it a war, but at the same time insist that a thousand Israelis civilians killed is a tragedy and an act of terrorism, but tens of thousands of Palestinians killed is no big deal and just how wars work. If you were consistent wouldn't  you hand wave Israelis being killed just as cavalierly as Palestinians. I mean you seem to champion a alls fair in war view.