Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Zoupa]

Go fuck yourself. Nobody gives a shit what you think.

[viper37]

As I said, I'm willing to make the bet.  Since Solmyr proposed it, I'll let him be the arbitrator.  If Solmyr says that is ethnic cleansing and I agree with him, you give me money.  C'mon guys, put your money where your mouth is.  1K even money.  American dollars: No Quebeci pesos or whatever you have up there.

You don't have 1k$ in your bank account, you depend on social security to live which will soon be cut, I have no means of enforcing the bet in the US, in fact, I risk severe harm to myself just crossing the border as a foreigner.

Not worth it for monkey money that is devaluated as we speak.

Besides, by the definition that Yi propose, that there shouldn't be single Arab living in Israel, it'll take too much time before I could collect money from any of you.  You will be sent to a farm camp to replace the meds you can no longer with the tariffs and the missing social security that pays for your lodging, Yi might lose his retirement fund and I might die anytime of a freak accident.

[Grey Fox]

You guys should define the bet first.

[grumbler]

Insurgent groups must still abide by the laws of war, they must wear identifiable insignia etc.  Israel has called out Hamas on using hospitals and ambulances before.  If the laws of war favor the side that breaks them, then they are useless.

There is no doubt that Hamas has committed many war crimes, nor that war crimes are actually pretty far down the list of horrific things that they have done. Israel is not free to ignore the laws of armed conflict just because Hamas does not honor them, just as cops are not allowed to break the law just because criminals do so.

[Razgovory]

You guys should define the bet first.

I did.  Viper just didn't read it.  Solymir declares there is a ethnic cleansing and I agree with him viper gives me a grand.  If I disagree with Solmyr then I give viper a grand.  Simple.  And I do have a grand.

[Razgovory]

Insurgent groups must still abide by the laws of war, they must wear identifiable insignia etc.  Israel has called out Hamas on using hospitals and ambulances before.  If the laws of war favor the side that breaks them, then they are useless.

There is no doubt that Hamas has committed many war crimes, nor that war crimes are actually pretty far down the list of horrific things that they have done. Israel is not free to ignore the laws of armed conflict just because Hamas does not honor them, just as cops are not allowed to break the law just because criminals do so.

So an army that willfully disregards the rules of war should an advantage over ones who do no?  An army of armed licensed medical personal driving combat ambulances is an unstoppable military force?  That doesn't seem right.

The example of police is a very poor one, since Police are given powers to act in ways that would be criminal for ordinary citizens.  They can kidnap people and even kill them because criminals break the law.

[viper37]

You guys should define the bet first.

Yi said:

In other words, all or virtually all of the victim group has to be compelled to leave through threat of violence to qualify as ethnic cleansing.

They have to clear Gaza, the West Bank and Israel of all Palestinians.

[crazy canuck]

The problem is that Raz is using words that have different meanings than that thinks they mean.  Genocide has been explained to him a number of times, but to no avail. I am not sure why anyone is engaging with him on this topic.

But I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is.  A term that is not defined in any international conventions.

Raz posted, sarcastically, that the Israelis has engaged in 5 genocides in Gaza by now.  I am not sure it is five, but it is certainly one at this point.

[Razgovory]

The problem is that Raz is using words that have different meanings than that thinks they mean.  Genocide has been explained to him a number of times, but to no avail. I am not sure why anyone is engaging with him on this topic.
But I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is.  A term that is not defined in any international conventions.
Raz posted, sarcastically, that the Israelis has engaged in 5 genocides in Gaza by now.  I am not sure it is five, but it is certainly one at this point.

Yes, simply giving people mental trauma is considered a form of genocide.  I simply reject that as nonsense.

The UN defintion includes

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Basically every war ever waged is a form of genocide.

[grumbler]

But I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is.  A term that is not defined in any international conventions.

I believe that part of the problem they are having is that some, like Yi, think that ethnic cleansing is a product, not a process, while others, like Zoupa, think that it is both a product and a process.

I agree with Zoupa, but don't want to get dragged into that discussion.

[Razgovory]

Right, settler-colonialism theory.  Simply living in the wrong place is a form of intolerable oppression.

[crazy canuck]

But I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is.  A term that is not defined in any international conventions.

I believe that part of the problem they are having is that some, like Yi, think that ethnic cleansing is a product, not a process, while others, like Zoupa, think that it is both a product and a process.

I agree with Zoupa, but don't want to get dragged into that discussion.

Yes, that is a good analysis of the problem

[Zoupa]

Right, settler-colonialism theory.  Simply living in the wrong place is a form of intolerable oppression.

Yes, because all the colonies were empty land that didn't belong to anyone before those jolly good folks moved in.

 

[Grey Fox]

Right, settler-colonialism theory.  Simply living in the wrong place is a form of intolerable oppression.

Yes, because all the colonies were empty land that didn't belong to anyone before those jolly good folks moved in.

 

Why does that matter?

[DGuller]

Go fuck yourself. Nobody gives a shit what you think.

I do, actually, so there is at least one person who does.