Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I never used the word "genocide". Killing civilians is still bad. I hope that insane notion doesn't upset you too much.

[mongers]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.

[grumbler]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I never used the word "genocide". Killing civilians is still bad. I hope that insane notion doesn't upset you too much.

There are some people with whom it is impossible to reason. "You'd think if the Nazis were targeting Jews they would have gotten more of them," or whatever the current equivalent argument is, isn't an intellectual argument.

Alci is correct that there have been war crimes, and that the Israelis responsible will never have to face justice.  While that is also true for some Hamas leaders, it doesn't excuse the IDF crimes.

[Razgovory]

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

[Razgovory]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.

I'm sure you would have done a 180 if he had said something different.

[DGuller]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.

Thank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.

[grumbler]

There are gradations of potential truth that lie between "the Israelis are trying to kill all Palestinians" and "Israel is completely innocent in the deaths of 40,000+ civilians." Israel pretty clearly uses disproportionate force in at least some cases (a war crime) and it's ROE that allows its soldiers/airmen to ignore at whim the protected status of medical and aid workers is also a war crime.

Yes, it sucks that Hamas uses human shields and sometimes engages in perfidy with protected status symbols, but war sucks in many ways. A nation is bound by the Geneva conventions even when its opponents are not.

[Valmy]

Thank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.

Putting greater weight on somebody's opinion is having them do your thinking for you? LOL.

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

I have mentioned several different strategies that could have been done over the decades we have been discussing this. But we are well beyond all of those. I am sure that the situation is so far gone that nobody has any current choice but just to kill civilians.

But I don't want to do it man. I will accept committing horrible atrocities with some despair if it is for a short period of time and maybe something better will result. I understand how the world works. We had to do horrible things in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. But it was only for a short time and ultimately lives were saved. But this is a protracted ethnic based conflict with no end in sight beyond doing something truly barbaric. And I want no part of it. And it does suck that my government seems determined to make me an accessory to all of this madness. That somehow some sort of policy is being advanced here. The only thing I see is an ethnic war. This is like Bosnia or Kosovo only now we have picked a side and are facilitating one side in winning.

Also if it is true that Israel just could have killed every single Palestinian with no problem at any moment they chose, and I am somewhat skeptical that is actually true, then why do they need our support? Sounds like they have the situation well in hand. But I think there are all sorts of reasons that Israel could not in fact have done this even if they desperately wanted to.

But you have said that if Israel does actually commit ethnic cleansing you would change your opinion and I plan on holding you to that pledge.

[mongers]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.

Thank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.

QFT, Classic languish. 

[mongers]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.

I'm sure you would have done a 180 if he had said something different.

 

Again yet more awesome Languish 'reasoning'.

[Razgovory]

There are gradations of potential truth that lie between "the Israelis are trying to kill all Palestinians" and "Israel is completely innocent in the deaths of 40,000+ civilians." Israel pretty clearly uses disproportionate force in at least some cases (a war crime) and it's ROE that allows its soldiers/airmen to ignore at whim the protected status of medical and aid workers is also a war crime.

Yes, it sucks that Hamas uses human shields and sometimes engages in perfidy with protected status symbols, but war sucks in many ways. A nation is bound by the Geneva conventions even when its opponents are not.

I was under the impression that continued acts of perfidy with protected status symbols negated the protected status of the symbols.  If not the army that attacks in ambulances rather than tanks with children tied to the top automatically wins.

[Razgovory]

Thank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.

Putting greater weight on somebody's opinion is having them do your thinking for you? LOL.

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

I have mentioned several different strategies that could have been done over the decades we have been discussing this. But we are well beyond all of those. I am sure that the situation is so far gone that nobody has any current choice but just to kill civilians.

But I don't want to do it man. I will accept committing horrible atrocities with some despair if it is for a short period of time and maybe something better will result. I understand how the world works. We had to do horrible things in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. But it was only for a short time and ultimately lives were saved. But this is a protracted ethnic based conflict with no end in sight beyond doing something truly barbaric. And I want no part of it. And it does suck that my government seems determined to make me an accessory to all of this madness. That somehow some sort of policy is being advanced here. The only thing I see is an ethnic war. This is like Bosnia or Kosovo only now we have picked a side and are facilitating one side in winning.

Also if it is true that Israel just could have killed every single Palestinian with no problem at any moment they chose, and I am somewhat skeptical that is actually true, then why do they need our support? Sounds like they have the situation well in hand. But I think there are all sorts of reasons that Israel could not in fact have done this even if they desperately wanted to.

But you have said that if Israel does actually commit ethnic cleansing you would change your opinion and I plan on holding you to that pledge.

Killing people isn't that hard,  In Rawanda they knocked off over half a million in a few months.  I think the Israeli have more than enough power to accomplish that, yet they do not.  It well within their power to shoot every civilian they see and decimate the entire population.  They also have nukes, so there is that.  There in is the crux of the issue:  The Palestinian leadership, both Hamas and the PLO would absolutely kill every last Israeli if they had the ability to do so.  Oct 7th was demonstration of that.  Israel has the power, but chooses not to use it.  That is the difference between the two.

Also, if Israel falls, you will probably die, so there is that.

[Razgovory]

  You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them.  What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade?  I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.

I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.

I'm sure you would have done a 180 if he had said something different.

 

Again yet more awesome Languish 'reasoning'.

Am I wrong?  He said something you already agree with and so you agree with him.  If he said something different I doubt it would have changed your opinion much at all.

[Solmyr]

But you have said that if Israel does actually commit ethnic cleansing you would change your opinion and I plan on holding you to that pledge.

The goalposts will move, so Raz will never admit it even when there actually is ethnic cleansing. Israel hasn't killed everyone quickly enough, so it can't be that bad, or something.

[Admiral Yi]

The goalposts will move, so Raz will never admit it even when there actually is ethnic cleansing. Israel hasn't killed everyone quickly enough, so it can't be that bad, or something.

I'll take that bet.